Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2528
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Zom » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:22 am

In the material world there is no boundary to anything. An atom can be destroyed into energy and reconstructed into new atom or material. The stream s of material and energy can not be distinguished.

On the other hand, the streams of individuals can not be merged, combined or splitted. E.g. if we merge the brain of two people, can they be combined into a new single person?

If we have faith in Buddhism, there is no way to merge two or multiple life stream into a single one, or split one life stream of an individual into multiple one.
This is incorrect to compare materiality with mentality which works differently because of different laws of nature (citta-niyama). If we take modern scientific knowledge: we know only 5% of the Universe (which is matter), 95% is something unknown, and, we have no idea what is "mind". End of story.
So for all the practical purpose, that mechanism is the ego, self, soul, whatever you call it.
In buddhism this is not calld "ego" or "self" or "soul". It is called "a being" (satta). However, ego/soul/self is not a being, since ego/soul/self is something which is always there and is unconditioned.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3547
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:49 pm

Self isn't soul

Soul is a mystery

Self isn't a mystery

auto
Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: theseus and anatta

Post by auto » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:44 pm

samsarictravelling wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

So, in real life, parts of a thing get replaced, so that the whole thing can continue existing. Like, according to our knowledge -- according to article(s) I read (maybe found in the same article(s) on the Theseus ship) -- our body's cells get replaced regularly, and we are regularly with a physical body composed of totally new cells; and now my own examples: if we wear glasses, we need new glasses when our old pair of glasses get broken irreparably, but our identity is not lost when we are wearing a new pair of glasses; the roof is leaking, so the roof is fixed, to keep us free from rain dripping into our room. These are repairs we do to keep us alive. So, if there was a Theseus ship, the parts that are worn out have to be replaced to keep the Theseus ship existing as a heroic monument. This is what happens in reality.

…...
In Buddhism, I have heard it said somewhere, that a person goes from one life to the next, like one candle flame lighting another candle. The new entity of the new life is connected with the old entity of the former life, like the new candle flame was lit by the old candle flame. This rebirth happens due to craving not having been totally eradicated. So the connection between one life to the next one is due to craving not being totally eradicated; if craving were totally eradicated, there would not be the going to a new life, but instead nibbana.

So, coupling reality with craving (I can also call craving desire or intention), we get identity. How so? For example, the Theseus ship belonged to the hero Theseus, and the people wanted to keep it as a monument, so would have to keep it in good condition, replacing parts that needed replacing. This is the reality of the situation.
....
samsarictravelling
you write too long.

what about person who becomes clinically dead. But it is still possible to bring body back to life.
Is the person alive then the same or was there any person at all? just body?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death.
things change overtime, peeps get smarter, the definition of when is death is fluctuating. And maybe one day there will be more punctuate reason why body wakes up other than neccessity of blood circulation, if they get the reason of it then it could be possible to keep alive someone without blood cirulation and breath.

The if there is soul, there is something for sure. And Jesus brought dead alive according to Bible and cured blind and incapacitated if i remember correctly.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.12/en/sujato
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished in-between one life and the next. This is the first person …
also the waht is extinguished in between one life and next are the fetters, not the person.

samsarictravelling
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:17 am
Contact:

Re: theseus and anatta

Post by samsarictravelling » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:28 am

auto wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:44 pm
samsarictravelling wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

So, in real life, parts of a thing get replaced, so that the whole thing can continue existing. Like, according to our knowledge -- according to article(s) I read (maybe found in the same article(s) on the Theseus ship) -- our body's cells get replaced regularly, and we are regularly with a physical body composed of totally new cells; and now my own examples: if we wear glasses, we need new glasses when our old pair of glasses get broken irreparably, but our identity is not lost when we are wearing a new pair of glasses; the roof is leaking, so the roof is fixed, to keep us free from rain dripping into our room. These are repairs we do to keep us alive. So, if there was a Theseus ship, the parts that are worn out have to be replaced to keep the Theseus ship existing as a heroic monument. This is what happens in reality.

…...
In Buddhism, I have heard it said somewhere, that a person goes from one life to the next, like one candle flame lighting another candle. The new entity of the new life is connected with the old entity of the former life, like the new candle flame was lit by the old candle flame. This rebirth happens due to craving not having been totally eradicated. So the connection between one life to the next one is due to craving not being totally eradicated; if craving were totally eradicated, there would not be the going to a new life, but instead nibbana.

So, coupling reality with craving (I can also call craving desire or intention), we get identity. How so? For example, the Theseus ship belonged to the hero Theseus, and the people wanted to keep it as a monument, so would have to keep it in good condition, replacing parts that needed replacing. This is the reality of the situation.
....
samsarictravelling
you write too long.

what about person who becomes clinically dead. But it is still possible to bring body back to life.
Is the person alive then the same or was there any person at all? just body?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death.
things change overtime, peeps get smarter, the definition of when is death is fluctuating. And maybe one day there will be more punctuate reason why body wakes up other than neccessity of blood circulation, if they get the reason of it then it could be possible to keep alive someone without blood cirulation and breath.

The if there is soul, there is something for sure. And Jesus brought dead alive according to Bible and cured blind and incapacitated if i remember correctly.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.12/en/sujato
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished in-between one life and the next. This is the first person …
also the waht is extinguished in between one life and next are the fetters, not the person.
Thanks, auto, for you inquiry, but I'm not interested in replying to reply-posts, nor answering questions,..I'm on vacation...from spending my time writing Buddhist stuff/answering questions. LOL!

samsarictravelling

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12831
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: theseus and anatta

Post by DNS » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:37 am

auto wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:44 pm
The if there is soul, there is something for sure. And Jesus brought dead alive according to Bible and cured blind and incapacitated if i remember correctly.
You don't believe that though, do you? It is clearly hagiography.
There are currently seven billion people alive today and the Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16870579
107 billion humans have lived and died, why would Lazarus be so special to be allowed to come back? And is he still alive? If not, why not?

When I first read the mustard seed story of Buddhism, I thought this is so much more profound, pragmatic and realistic than the hagiographical Lazarus myth.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Kisa_Gotami

auto
Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: theseus and anatta

Post by auto » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:22 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:37 am
auto wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:44 pm
The if there is soul, there is something for sure. And Jesus brought dead alive according to Bible and cured blind and incapacitated if i remember correctly.
You don't believe that though, do you? It is clearly hagiography.
There are currently seven billion people alive today and the Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16870579
107 billion humans have lived and died, why would Lazarus be so special to be allowed to come back? And is he still alive? If not, why not?

When I first read the mustard seed story of Buddhism, I thought this is so much more profound, pragmatic and realistic than the hagiographical Lazarus myth.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Kisa_Gotami
You can come back as a swarm of frogs. Large amount of humans can share one and the same soul.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
While this explanation was being given, there arose to Sakka the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye — "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" — as it also did to [his following of] 80,000 other devas.
What does the following mean. Could be similar to hive mind. That said, the is Jesus story a fiction or not, it doesn't matter if i hold such possibilities above.
Why LAzarus came back, it could be Jesus donated some of its cultivated life essence..

Have you experienced something through cultivation and as a result you can use your mind in a certain way and the need relearn everything from start, thus the need for yet another human life to experience thing in a more sophisticated way.


to add the cherry to the top of the cake, i do believe in light-body, original templates of human body etc. Does this disqualify from reading Suttas and deriving inspiration from them? no, because i have access to Suttas, i take it as permission to read them too.

and to add the soul thing, you tune in on spot to the soul, so the incarnation could be not literally, but like if you tune into certain music you get to the soul and perhaps when at that moment you would die you could have a rebirth consciousness what sends you to deva world where is lots of musicians devas. And it doesn't have to be like that, there is also period between one life and another so at that period you can tune in and go to the appropriate destination.

confusedlayman
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:53 pm

if we drop form, feeling, consciousness etc then final parinibbana is like unconciousness state. it is non existent state . but buddha never said that he didn't define it. of course, unconscious state can't be defined as when there is no consciousness there is no concept. but he could have told nibbana like unconcious state after death of this 5 aggregates but he never told that. he also didn't say something exist outside of these 5 aggregates which means if it exist then we have to identify with it here and now.

so it is confusing that parinibbana state is not unconciousness like state/ consciousness like state (not the five aggregate consciousness).

he many times said it should be experienced but cannot be said in words.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3547
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:59 pm

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around

Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-1

SteRo
Posts: 967
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:06 pm

:clap: I second that. This papanca about "consciousness without feature,", Viññanam anidassanam, is nothing but soul theory speculation. I even think that this viññanam anidassanam might have slipped into the Pali canon through heretics attached to soul theories. There is no need to add anything beyond signless awareness which is mentioned in MN 121 Cula-suññata Sutta following after the Neither Perception nor Non-Perception formless sphere.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3547
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:45 pm

SteRo wrote:nothing but soul theory speculation.
the soul is a mystery

something we can't determine

SteRo
Posts: 967
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:58 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:45 pm
SteRo wrote:nothing but soul theory speculation.
the soul is a mystery

something we can't determine
No, soul is a product of formative ignorance.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3547
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:08 pm

SteRo wrote: No, soul is a product of formative ignorance.
that isn't the teaching

SteRo
Posts: 967
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:11 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:08 pm
SteRo wrote: No, soul is a product of formative ignorance.
that isn't the teaching
you seem to be attached to soul theories. No problem. It takes some progress on the path to be able to let go of these products of ignorance.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3547
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:12 pm

SteRo wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
SteRo wrote: No, soul is a product of formative ignorance.
that isn't the teaching
you seem to be attached to soul theories. No problem.
I said no theory
cappuccino wrote:the soul is a mystery

something we can't determine

SteRo
Posts: 967
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:16 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:12 pm
SteRo wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

that isn't the teaching
you seem to be attached to soul theories. No problem.
I've said no theory
Say whatever you like. As long as you can't realize and accept the concept 'soul' as ignorance you have to work on what blocks that realization.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot] and 183 guests