Lifespan of beings in the hell realm

[zengen]

I don't think that logically follows. For example, when people buy lottery tickets the fact that each person's chance of winning the jackpot is small doesn't allow any predictions to be made about whether this or that gambler will take a short time or a long time to win.

Most people will not win jackpot, even though they play lottery their entire lives. By the same logic, most beings will have to stay in the lower realms for a very long time.

[Aloka]

Personally, I think that speculating about hell realms can be the cause of an unnecessary mental hell in the here and now.

This is from the historian and Pali scholar Richard Gombrich in "Kindness and Compassion as a Means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism":

The fully developed Buddhist cosmology does appear within the canon, but I am extremely sceptical about whether it can be ascribed to the Buddha himself. I am sceptical not only because of the way that the details can be accounted for as a historical development; to show such interest in the structure of the universe goes against the Buddha’s explicit message. The world, he said, lies within this fathom-long human carcass; indeed, there are many texts in which he discourages speculation about or even interest in the physical universe; we should concentrate on our experience of life here and now.

http://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/gonda.pdf

[Aloka]

....and from Rupert Gethin in "The Foundations of Buddhism":

Whatever ultimate interpretation one puts on traditional Buddhist cosmology, it remains a flexible framework within which to make sense of a rich spectrum of experience.

Nevertheless at another practical level this cosmologicai framework has allowed Buddhism to accommodate and take under its wing certain aspects of what might be called, for want of a better term, 'folk religion'. This process of accommodation is as old as Buddhism itself-perhaps older. Many of the gods and different kinds of being found in the ancient cosmology have been absorbed into the Buddhist scheme of things from pre-existing folk and religious traditions.

In precisely the same way they have been absorbed and adapted by Jain and Brahmanical tradition. Thus figures such as Brahma and Sakra or Indra, such classes of being as Asuras, Gandharvas (celestial musicians), Yaksas and Yaksinis, Raksasas (types of demon and nymph), Nagas (mythical serpents), Garudas (mythical birds), and other classes of minor deities dwelling in forests, groves, and trees-all these form part of a vast Indian mythical and folk-religious heritage that the various Indian traditions draw upon.

Each tradition preserves slightly different accounts of these beings; in each tradition they are adapted and reinterpreted, taking on slightly different characters· and acquiring particular associations, while still retaining certain common features.

In the fully developed Buddhist cosmology, these sorts of beings are generally associated with the gods of the lower sense-sphere heavens. But their presence in the Buddhist scheme of things in part reflects a simple fact of the cultural milieu in which Buddhism grew. We are concerned here with something which is in principle as relevant to Indian religion today as it was 2,000 years ago. Then as now most people lived in a world alive with fairies, demons, goblins, ghosts, nymphs, dragons, angels, as well as various gods.


http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... n_1998.pdf

[Khalil Bodhi]

Personally, I think that speculating about hell realms can be the cause of an unnecessary mental hell in the here and now.

This is from the historian and Pali scholar Richard Gombrich in "Kindness and Compassion as a Means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism":

The fully developed Buddhist cosmology does appear within the canon, but I am extremely sceptical about whether it can be ascribed to the Buddha himself. I am sceptical not only because of the way that the details can be accounted for as a historical development; to show such interest in the structure of the universe goes against the Buddha’s explicit message. The world, he said, lies within this fathom-long human carcass; indeed, there are many texts in which he discourages speculation about or even interest in the physical universe; we should concentrate on our experience of life here and now.

http://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/gonda.pdf

Aloka,

I've found the teachings which point to the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms as a truly valuable contribution to my daily life and practice. Obviously this may not be the case for you but there is no denying it is in the suttas and is of value to a number of lay followers and monastics. Ajahn Achalo just put out a video discussing the skillfulness of belief in becoming that might interest you and others in this thread: https://youtu.be/Xw5dj1Yrt2I

Best wishes,

KB

[Aloka]

Aloka,

I've found the teachings which point to the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms as a truly valuable contribution to my daily life and practice. Obviously this may not be the case for you but there is no denying it is in the suttas and is of value to a number of lay followers and monastics. Ajahn Achalo just put out a video discussing the skillfulness of belief in becoming that might interest you and others in this thread: https://youtu.be/Xw5dj1Yrt2I

Best wishes,

KB

Khalil Bodhi,

I didn't mention rebirth, and I'm sorry but I don't have time to watch a 50 minute video called " Belief In Rebirth Is Skillful".

What I did mention was speculation about what happens in hell realms - and also I posted quotes about ancient Indian cosmology being absorbed into Buddhism.

Kind regards,

Aloka

[Khalil Bodhi]

Aloka,

I've found the teachings which point to the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms as a truly valuable contribution to my daily life and practice. Obviously this may not be the case for you but there is no denying it is in the suttas and is of value to a number of lay followers and monastics. Ajahn Achalo just put out a video discussing the skillfulness of belief in becoming that might interest you and others in this thread: https://youtu.be/Xw5dj1Yrt2I

Best wishes,

KB

Khalil Bodhi,

I didn't mention rebirth, and I'm sorry but I don't have time to watch a 50 minute video called " Belief In Rebirth Is Skillful".

What I did mention was speculation about what happens in hell realms - and also I posted quotes about ancient Indian cosmology being absorbed into Buddhism.

Kind regards,

Aloka

Aloka,

I'm sorry if my post was confusing but rebirth in the hell realms is just one of the possibilities when you take on the belief in rebirth. Hence my post. I'm not personally a fan of the academic and secularist view that the Lord Buddha simply made use of ancient Indian cosmology and, thus, rebirth is just a cultural accretion. Ven. Thanissaro and others have pointed out in the past that there was no singular or monolithic cosmological worldview in India at the time. If you have the time, I 'd be happy provide you with links to these.

For some of us, it is the speculation, one may even say contemplation, about the length and types of suffering in the hells that helps to keep us on course when our faculties of reason fail us or the carrot just isn't working.

Best wishes,

KB

[robertk]

I'm

not personally a fan of the academic and secularist view that the Lord Buddha simply made use of ancient Indian cosmology and, thus, rebirth is just a cultural accretion. Ven. Thanissaro and others have pointed out in the past that there was no singular or monolithic cosmological worldview in India at the time. If you have the time, I 'd be happy provide you with links to these.

[Aloka]

I'm

not personally a fan of the academic and secularist view that the Lord Buddha simply made use of ancient Indian cosmology and, thus, rebirth is just a cultural accretion. Ven. Thanissaro and others have pointed out in the past that there was no singular or monolithic cosmological worldview in India at the time. If you have the time, I 'd be happy provide you with links to these.

Ok guys, I'm a woman in the minority here, getting the message loud and clear, as always.

I'll stick to my own forum in future.

Bye,

[zengen]

Aloka, you don't believe hell is a physical place like this world we live in? Buddha taught hell is actually a physical place. Scholars may have different opinion.

[Aloka]

Aloka, you don't believe hell is a physical place like this world we live in? Buddha taught hell is actually a physical place. Scholars may have different opinion.

If you read my post carefully, I didn't say I believed or disbelieved in anything at all, yet people are so quick to condemn and make assumptions.

Goodnight.

[zengen]

If you read my post carefully, I didn't say I believed or disbelieved in anything at all, yet people are so quick to condemn and make assumptions.

Dear Aloka, no one is condemning anyone. Just good Dhamma discussions

[D1W1]

...one thing that's certain is that once one's fallen down to the state of woe, it's exceedingly difficult to go back to the higher realms...

But it's very easy to fall into the hells...

Looking at our unbelievably long samsaric journey, we have been reborn in all 6 realms. It's also said everyone has become our mother, father, relative, son, daughter and so on. Tears and blood that we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time - crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing is greater than that of the four great oceans.

Don't think about it too much. You never think you would become a human and have good affinity with the teaching of Buddha. So take this opportunity to do more wholesome deeds

[Katarzyna]

Hi zengen,

Most people will not win jackpot, even though they play lottery their entire lives. By the same logic, most beings will have to stay in the lower realms for a very long time.

Sure. Which means that the probability of getting out quickly is low. But your earlier statement that I disagreed with suggested that a lengthy stay was something inevitable and universal, rather than merely probable:

Well, the rarity of chances of getting out means spending a very long time in the lower realms.

__
Kasia

[Aloka]

In an earlier post I said:

Personally, I think that speculating about hell realms can be the cause of an unnecessary mental hell in the here and now.

and here's a quote from Ajahn Amaro's book "Small Boat, Great Mountain":

Buddhist cosmology and the stories of the suttas always have a historical, a mythical and a psychological element to them.

When we talk about the Buddha under the bodhi tree, we sometimes wonder, “Was it actually that tree? Are we sure that he really sat beside the river Nerañjara near Bodhgaya? How can anyone know it was actually there?” The story goes that perhaps the Buddha did sit under a tree, or a Nepalese prince sat under a tree, and something happened (or stopped happening) somewhere in India a couple of thousand years or so ago.

In other words, there are both historical and mythological aspects to the story.

But the most crucial element is how this maps onto our own psychology. How does this symbolize our experience?

Regarding the first and last sentences of the above quote ...My personal experience is that "hell realms" can be understood and experienced mentally in the here and now, rather than speculated about as being something terrible in another dimension, with people being tortured and prodded with red hot pokers and so on. That's very similar to the Christian hell portrayed in the paintings of the 15th century Dutch painter Hieronymus Bosch. I'm afraid that just doesn't work for me, I need to relate to this life in the present moment, which is all I have.

Here are some Buddhist interpretations of hell realms, I think the last two are "Hell gardens" near temples in Thailand:










What other people believe is up to them and I wish everyone happiness and good health.

[The Thinker]

I am more concerned with those hell realms ( realities and thoughts) that we can see in the here and now, this is our experience, our own experience is what I believe the buddha encouraged us to pursue.

Now I turn on the news and this is a cause of suffering for me, I see the news as a Hell realm.

I wake up in what is a relatively peaceful zone where war is not present, many individuals are not so lucky, they may wake up in one of many Hell realms( war Zones) on this planet, Those people when taken away from those Hell realms, may feel that they are in heaven, away from death,killing,bombs etc, and a peace of mind not known previous may be born or reborn. Upon reflection of their new found heaven, their eyes may swell with tears for those left behind in those hell realms, and understand that those friends and family may never see or witness heaven in this existence.

A man/women have worked hard all their life, they suddenly find themselves out of work and struggling to pay debt and bills and even difficulty feeding themselves, holidays seem out of the question, suddenly they have been driven into another sort of hell realm.

My interest is understanding the suffering, and finding ways out of suffering, this I believe is what the Buddha delivered, the mythical, which I can't grasp through my own pre-conditioning offers me much confusion, I believe many of us in the UK struggle with these teachings, luckily for us Ajahn Chah in particular and then his students rescued us from abandoning the teachings, with observations of their own experiences in the more modern age.

I do not wish to cast doubt on the teachings , but merely explain my own confusion, your beliefs are honourable, we share the four truths, let this be our guide and our everlasting bond of peace and friendships.