Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 14, 2016 7:13 am

The noble eightfold path is supramundane, it is beyond the reach of ordinary men, and only noble disciples are on it.
[This is an essential part of the Sutta Pitaka, often overlooked because the later teachings change the meaning of the eightfold path.]
There are two aspect in Noble Eightfold Path. Mundane and supermundane.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by chownah » Sat May 14, 2016 9:31 am

SarathW wrote:
The noble eightfold path is supramundane, it is beyond the reach of ordinary men, and only noble disciples are on it.
[This is an essential part of the Sutta Pitaka, often overlooked because the later teachings change the meaning of the eightfold path.]
There are two aspect in Noble Eightfold Path. Mundane and supermundane.
Are there then four aspects which are mundane and four aspects which are supermundane in the noble eightfold path?
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daverupa
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by daverupa » Sat May 14, 2016 11:57 am

I don't think the supra/mundane distinction needs to hold that much water; it's something of a false dichotomy, as the development of wholesome factors in an individual case admits of degrees, almost like it's a gradual thing... (even the attainment of stream-entry & the removal of eternalisms, annihilationisms, etc...)

Anyway, take it elsewhere, friends, if it's heading into those waters. :hug: This thread is about the early approach to annihilationists & their way into Nobility, since the approach for believers in rebirth & yakkhas is thoroughly explored.
Herbie wrote:
There is [however] the case where a monk...
:clap:

I think most people haven't noticed yet that "tainted right view" has to go just as much as this annihilationism business (the latter even seems to be a better starting point...).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Mkoll
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by Mkoll » Sat May 14, 2016 5:50 pm

daverupa wrote:I think most people haven't noticed yet that "tainted right view" has to go just as much as this annihilationism business (the latter even seems to be a better starting point...).
Better starting point for what?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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daverupa
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by daverupa » Sat May 14, 2016 6:51 pm

Mkoll wrote:
daverupa wrote:I think most people haven't noticed yet that "tainted right view" has to go just as much as this annihilationism business (the latter even seems to be a better starting point...).
Better starting point for what?
For garnering conviction in the Dhamma.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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The Thinker
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by The Thinker » Sat May 14, 2016 8:26 pm

36. “Bhikkhus, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a bhikkhu who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find [anything of which they could say]: ‘The consciousness of one thus gone is supported by this.’ Why is that? One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.
http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... pama-sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does annihilation mean untraceable?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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daverupa
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by daverupa » Sat May 14, 2016 8:27 pm

The Thinker wrote:Does annihilation mean untraceable?
No. It seems to mean "this lifespan is all there is, there is no other state for me". Thus, the view goes, at death that being who lived that life is annihilated, ended.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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The Thinker
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by The Thinker » Sat May 14, 2016 8:30 pm

This for me is the whole point or meaning of annihilation, the evidence is untraceable.

Sometimes what one individual draws from a meaning is very different to another view of the same word. (argument and confusion pursue)
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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The Thinker
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by The Thinker » Sat May 14, 2016 8:51 pm

So the buddha investigated and came to the conclusion that he could not produce the evidence, and realised the confusion and suffering that dwelling upon the subject could cause. Thus did not give many answers on the subject. The middle way is the end of suffering. (we do not know)
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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mikenz66
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat May 14, 2016 9:29 pm

daverupa wrote:The weight of the evidence seems to indicate that an annihilationist wanderer would not need (nor be told) to accept rebirth in order to practice, even up to non-return.

So that's interesting. Maybe some secular folk would benefit from this information?
Yes, since this "tainted right view" teaching is a minority of one in the four main nikayas I don't see that much weight needs to be put on it.

:anjali:
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SarathW
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 14, 2016 10:08 pm

I think most people haven't noticed yet that "tainted right view" has to go just as much as this annihilationism business (the latter even seems to be a better starting point...).
What is "tainted right view"?
Howcome right view be tainted?
I miss this point.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Mkoll
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by Mkoll » Sat May 14, 2016 10:19 pm

daverupa wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
daverupa wrote:I think most people haven't noticed yet that "tainted right view" has to go just as much as this annihilationism business (the latter even seems to be a better starting point...).
Better starting point for what?
For garnering conviction in the Dhamma.
I dunno, might work for some people as long as it doesn't undermine sila.

However, I've never seen a single sutta teaching that encourages people to adopt an annihilationist view (it's actively discouraged in some) whereas many take the listeners' affirmative view of rebirth/kamma/devas for granted (and none actively discourage that view). So based upon the evidence alone, annihilationism cannot be called a better starting point.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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daverupa
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by daverupa » Sat May 14, 2016 10:48 pm

SarathW wrote:What is "tainted right view"?
Howcome right view be tainted?
I miss this point.
This is mentioned in MN 117.
Mkoll wrote:I dunno, might work for some people as long as it doesn't undermine sila.
Exactly, those are the 'some' I'm writing for. Maybe two more people over the next year or so? But in any event, it's a doorway to the Dhamma that's very overgrown, worth clearing up a bit, I had thought.

Anyway, as already shown, lack of rebirth belief doesn't automatically undermine Sila. Many people seem to think that rebirth belief is a necessary adjunct to Dhamma practice... but, it is not.
However, I've never seen a single sutta teaching that encourages people to adopt an annihilationist view
Well, and nowhere are any annihilationist wanderer converts told to accept rebirth. Frankly, I don't recall a sutta that advises taking up any view other than right view... so of course annihilationism isn't to be taken up, but neither is any other tainted view, not on purpose. The only view to take up on purpose is right view.
So based upon the evidence alone, annihilationism cannot be called a better starting point.
It can for some; the main point here is that it is a starting point; most rhetoric on this issue states otherwise. Worth trimming that verge, methinks.

(Maybe even three people thinketh so! :jumping: )
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

SarathW
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 14, 2016 11:02 pm

Anyway, as already shown, lack of rebirth belief doesn't automatically undermine Sila. Many people seem to think that rebirth belief is a necessary adjunct to Dhamma practice... but, it is not.
To me if you do not believe in re-birth, you do not believe in the cause and effect. (kamma/vipaka)
Believe in kamma/vipaka is a necessary adjunct to Dhamma Practice.
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Where are the post-annihilationist monastics?

Post by SarathW » Sat May 14, 2016 11:26 pm

Thanks David.
"Even Vassa & Bhañña — those teachers from Okkala who were proponents of no-causality, no-action, & no-existence — would not think that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured & rejected. Why is that? For fear of criticism, opposition, & reproach."
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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