Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:35 am

So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Mkoll » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:45 am

daverupa wrote:So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
Who knows what paticcasamuppada looks like to an arahant? Besides that, what is there to understand? I don't see the problem.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:50 am

Mkoll wrote:
daverupa wrote:So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
Who knows what paticcasamuppada looks like to an arahant? Besides that, what is there to understand? I don't see the problem.
Well, how is it you understand the idea that birth requires bhava? The seeing of this, without a seeing of past lives or future ones, seems like a sticky wicket.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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The Thinker
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:00 am

He looks within observes sensations and cravings, and hopefully, with much practice (or little) puts an end to craving and sufferring.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:14 am

Of course; does this knowledge mean knowledge of paticcasamuppada but without grokking the mainline understanding of bhava?

---

Is it just me, or do we indeed find many examples of the Buddha converting various other wanderers & brahmins, but not so much annihilationist wanderers? They were said to be pretty close to dispassion; where are their conversion narratives? Maybe there are some clues there on this issue...?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Zom » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:35 am

Vibhava-tanha is still based on the mistaken assumption of existence. Wanting to be rid of existence means that one believes existence is real. If someone is hallucinating that ants are crawling all over their body, the imaginary ants aren't the problem -- the hallucinating is.
I'd add that we are speaking here only about the existence of "self". The existence of the aggregates is not a hallucination .)

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:55 am

daverupa wrote:Of course; does this knowledge mean knowledge of paticcasamuppada but without grokking the mainline understanding of bhava?

---

Is it just me, or do we indeed find many examples of the Buddha converting various other wanderers & brahmins, but not so much annihilationist wanderers? They were said to be pretty close to dispassion; where are their conversion narratives? Maybe there are some clues there on this issue...?
Good question, are there?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:30 am

Greetings,
Zom wrote:I'd add that we are speaking here only about the existence of "self". The existence of the aggregates is not a hallucination .)
"One who with right wisdom sees the cessation of the world as it really is, the view of existence regarding the world does not occur." (SN 12.15)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by katavedi » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:00 pm

Hello Zom,
Zom wrote:
Vibhava-tanha is still based on the mistaken assumption of existence. Wanting to be rid of existence means that one believes existence is real. If someone is hallucinating that ants are crawling all over their body, the imaginary ants aren't the problem -- the hallucinating is.
I'd add that we are speaking here only about the existence of "self". The existence of the aggregates is not a hallucination .)
On the conventional level, I agree with you. But, as I see it, each aggregate is just a collection of conditions interacting temporarily -- there is no inherent "aggregate" existing there, aside from the designation that we give that collection of conditions. And each condition itself is only "existing" due to other conditions interacting temporarily, and therefore we can't say that each condition really "exists" either, but they are also just designations for another group of interacting conditions.

I believe this is what the Buddha meant when he taught:
Form is like a lump of foam,
Feeling like a water bubble;
Perception is like a mirage,
Volitions like a plantain trunk,
And consciousness like an illusion,
So explained the Kinsman of the Sun.

“However one may ponder it
And carefully investigate it,
It appears but hollow and void
When one views it carefully.
-SN 22.95
Kind wishes,
katavedi
“But, Gotamī, when you know of certain things: ‘These things lead to dispassion, not to passion; to detachment, not to attachment; to diminution, not to accumulation; to having few wishes, not to having many wishes; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to socializing; to the arousing of energy, not to indolence; to simple living, not to luxurious living’ – of such things you can be certain: ‘This is the Dhamma; this is the Discipline; this is the Master’s Teaching.’”

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:09 pm

Extinction, not-extension, all things end.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Lazy_eye » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:40 pm

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Aloka,
It's AN 1.328.
Paul, would you be able to provide a link and perhaps the Pali original? I have been unable to locate this passage. I did find the following:
320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second.

321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, ... re ... saliva, ... re ... pus, ... re ... blood smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even for the fraction of a second.

Notes.

( 1) I do not specify thinking even for a short second. `appamattakaṃpi bhavaṃ na vaṇṇemi' Always thoughts seek connections in the past, for the future or in the present. The bhikkhu who aims extinction should not advocte thinking, as thoughts prolong the journey in existence.


I don't know Pali, but can see that "bhavam" is used in the phrase above....

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by katavedi » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:50 pm

Hello Lazy_eye,
Lazy_eye wrote:Paul, would you be able to provide a link and perhaps the Pali original? I have been unable to locate this passage.
“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, appamattakopi gūtho duggandho hoti; evamevaṃ kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, appamattakampi bhavaṃ na vaṇṇemi, antamaso accha­rā­saṅghā­ta­mattampi”.

Kind wishes,
katavedi
“But, Gotamī, when you know of certain things: ‘These things lead to dispassion, not to passion; to detachment, not to attachment; to diminution, not to accumulation; to having few wishes, not to having many wishes; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to socializing; to the arousing of energy, not to indolence; to simple living, not to luxurious living’ – of such things you can be certain: ‘This is the Dhamma; this is the Discipline; this is the Master’s Teaching.’”

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:00 pm

Hi lazy Eye - subject discussed here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=19997" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:07 pm

The buddha in a dogmatic mood, and in contradiction to his teachings?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toask.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Without thinking, there can be no questions.,
Last edited by The Thinker on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Lazy_eye » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:14 pm

I found the passage confusing -- it seems to set up existence as a real (if unappealing) thing that can be gotten rid of. That is, it seems to endorse vibhava-tanha.

Possible that this is a case of language and viewpoints from earlier Śramaṇa movements being carried over into the Pali suttas, and attributed to the Buddha?
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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