Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa »

Mkoll wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say someone is agnostic about rebirth and they practice diligently and attain arahantship. Are they then still agnostic about rebirth?
SN 12.70 applies here. It demonstrates that for some arahants (most? could it be... ALL of them?) the regularity of the Dhamma is seen, but they do not see past lives or kamma-vipaka for beings.

Unless they overestimate themselves, they know that the cessation of ignorance has occurred & therefore that there is no more coming to any state due to the lack of necessary nutriment for such an event. At the same time, they do not have any confirmation of pre-/post-death continuities (meditative visions of such things are not confirmation of them as ontological facts, but simply ongoing evidence of their having a foundation in feeling, per DN 1).

...so, what's the problem again? Staying within the scope of the OP, the goal is dukkha-nirodha, not rebirth-nirodha. (The former is alleged to mean the latter, but this always remains an inferential conclusion. The former, in and of itself, is the point.)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mkoll
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:
Mkoll wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say someone is agnostic about rebirth and they practice diligently and attain arahantship. Are they then still agnostic about rebirth?
SN 12.70 applies here. It demonstrates that for some arahants (most? could it be... ALL of them?) the regularity of the Dhamma is seen, but they do not see past lives or kamma-vipaka for beings.
That sutta backs up what I said before:
Mkoll wrote:In responding to this, please keep in mind the difference between the power of recollecting past lives and knowledge of the end of rebirth at arahantship. One is not required for the other according to the texts.
As the sutta says, seeing kamma-vipaka of other beings falls under the same category as recollection of past lives: not necessary for arahantship.

~~~
daverupa wrote:Unless they overestimate themselves, they know that the cessation of ignorance has occurred & therefore that there is no more coming to any state due to the lack of necessary nutriment for such an event. At the same time, they do not have any confirmation of pre-/post-death continuities (meditative visions of such things are not confirmation of them as ontological facts, but simply ongoing evidence of their having a foundation in feeling, per DN 1).

...so, what's the problem again? Staying within the scope of the OP, the goal is dukkha-nirodha, not rebirth-nirodha.
So you are saying they know there is no nutriment for rebirth, or "coming into any state", yes? If so, how is that not confirmation of the lack of post-death continuity, i.e. confirmation that birth has ended, i.e. no more rebirth? It sounds like a contradiction.
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Aloka
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Aloka »

Paul Davy wrote: the Buddha said that "as even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers."

Could you provide the source of the quote, please Paul ?


:anjali:
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Aloka,

It's AN 1.328.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa »

My thinking was that the arahant knows that the ending of dukkha has occurred, though the body may yet stand as a condition for unpleasant feeling. But that's only temporary, and when it ends there's just no more fuel around for such things, whether or not it would have happened.

Maybe it's too thin a slice to satisfy... ah well; I still see a space for withholding a commitment. Surely I can only guess at what an arahant knows.

:broke:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mkoll
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:My thinking was that the arahant knows that the ending of dukkha has occurred, though the body may yet stand as a condition for unpleasant feeling. But that's only temporary, and when it ends there's just no more fuel around for such things, whether or not it would have happened.

Maybe it's too thin a slice to satisfy... ah well; I still see a space for withholding a commitment.
Yes, the contradiction remains AFAICS. I do agree about withholding full commitment though, as per the Canki Sutta (MN 95).
daverupa wrote:Surely I can only guess at what an arahant knows.

:broke:
Indeed, we can only speculate.
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Lazy_eye »

daverupa wrote: Maybe it's too thin a slice to satisfy... ah well; I still see a space for withholding a commitment. Surely I can only guess at what an arahant knows.
That is a very interesting sutta. It makes me wonder whether an "axiological" approach to the Dhamma might be fundamentally off the mark -- since in this presentation, samsara itself seems to bring forth nibbana.
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The Thinker
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker »

How can one" know or see "if he should not think?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker »

Paul davy wrote - AN 1.328.

This sutta in isolation can be a great cause of suffering, I feel it was not correct, or I should say a poor teaching if thinking is a cause of suffering this can trigger all sorts of nihilistic thought and yes some may encounter thoughts of suicide. If craving( not-thinking) was the meaning then the word craving should have been used!
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Sylvester »

daverupa wrote:
Mkoll wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say someone is agnostic about rebirth and they practice diligently and attain arahantship. Are they then still agnostic about rebirth?
SN 12.70 applies here. It demonstrates that for some arahants (most? could it be... ALL of them?) the regularity of the Dhamma is seen, but they do not see past lives or kamma-vipaka for beings.
I think SN 12.70 and its Chinese parallel have both suffered some messy transmission problems.

For one, the Chinese has the enlightened monk declaring that he does not have any of the jhanas, unlike SN 12.70 which mentions only the formless attainments. Unlike the Pali version, the Chinese is missing any reference to the supernormal powers.

What gives? On the basis of SA 347, there is now canonical support for the notion of the Dry-Insight Worker. :stirthepot:
daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa »

So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Mkoll
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
Who knows what paticcasamuppada looks like to an arahant? Besides that, what is there to understand? I don't see the problem.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa »

Mkoll wrote:
daverupa wrote:So, an arahant is sitting there, looking at paticcasamuppada rolling along, without the ability to see past lives. The arahant is still sitting there, and looking on, without the ability to see beings re-arise in various ways.

How can this be understood?
Who knows what paticcasamuppada looks like to an arahant? Besides that, what is there to understand? I don't see the problem.
Well, how is it you understand the idea that birth requires bhava? The seeing of this, without a seeing of past lives or future ones, seems like a sticky wicket.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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The Thinker
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by The Thinker »

He looks within observes sensations and cravings, and hopefully, with much practice (or little) puts an end to craving and sufferring.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
daverupa
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Re: Goal of the path: "nirvana" vs "nirodha"?

Post by daverupa »

Of course; does this knowledge mean knowledge of paticcasamuppada but without grokking the mainline understanding of bhava?

---

Is it just me, or do we indeed find many examples of the Buddha converting various other wanderers & brahmins, but not so much annihilationist wanderers? They were said to be pretty close to dispassion; where are their conversion narratives? Maybe there are some clues there on this issue...?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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