What does it mean to have no views?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
dhammacoustic
Posts: 858
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:30 am
Location: Dhammaville

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:
The rest, is your lila.
And how does lila, a Hindu concept grounded in the notion of an active absolute beingness, have relevance to the Buddha's teachings?
I just meant play, /used the word lila instead; "the rest is your play"..
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

User avatar
dhammacoustic
Posts: 858
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:30 am
Location: Dhammaville

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:52 am

Herbie wrote:Dependent on having formed concepts.
And on what condition do we form concepts?
Herbie wrote:you should express yourself more precise from the outset:
Dynamism has several meanings.

Dynamism (metaphysics), a cosmological explanation of the material world
Dynamism (computing), a computer term for management of simultaneous operations
Dynamicism, the application of dynamical systems theory to cognitive science
"Plastic dynamism", a term used by the Italian futurist art movement to describe an object's intrinsic and extrinsic motion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dynamic existence, as in; existence is dynamic and it cannot be otherwise; things cannot exist unless they are dynamic.

dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.
That may be a kind of metaphysical belief which I do not share.
It is an observation, rather than a belief.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:43 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:
The rest, is your lila.
And how does lila, a Hindu concept grounded in the notion of an active absolute beingness, have relevance to the Buddha's teachings?
I just meant play, /used the word lila instead; "the rest is your play"..
Since lila is not a Buddhist term, as we see above, it is understood.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by daverupa » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 pm

Oh, and besides MN 74, I notice:
clw_uk wrote:... there seems to be a hint that an Arahant does not hold views or opinions at all.
MN 22 points out that on the way to awakening there is a "right grasp" approach to right view, and also wrong ones. This right view is in fact a regularity of the way things are (SN 12.20), which means that "an arahant holds no views" doesn't mean he is view-less, it means that this right view is not held/clung to.

As DN 1 says:
...When, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact, their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, then he understands what transcends all these views [yet even that understanding he does not misapprehend.].
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Herbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:40 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:19 am

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:Dependent on having formed concepts.
And on what condition do we form concepts?
Sorry but I do not speak in such terms like "we", "our" or "us". When I speak I am expressing myself. I am not a spokesman of a collective.
Dependent on life I do form concepts.
dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:you should express yourself more precise from the outset:
Dynamism has several meanings.

Dynamism (metaphysics), a cosmological explanation of the material world
Dynamism (computing), a computer term for management of simultaneous operations
Dynamicism, the application of dynamical systems theory to cognitive science
"Plastic dynamism", a term used by the Italian futurist art movement to describe an object's intrinsic and extrinsic motion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dynamic existence, as in; existence is dynamic and it cannot be otherwise; things cannot exist unless they are dynamic.

dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.
Taken that way conceptual imputation is a dynamic process

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.
That may be a kind of metaphysical belief which I do not share.
dhammacoustic wrote: It is an observation, rather than a belief.
I do not believe what you say because existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation only.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

chownah
Posts: 7377
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:11 am

Herbie wrote: Dependent on life I do form concepts.
How have you determined that the forming of concepts is dependent on life? I don't understand how this view can be supported. Isn't this just an assumption on your part?
chownah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6623
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:39 am

Hi clw_uk,
Words can have different meanings and renderings when translated, and in the context of Ditti I do not like the rendering of views and prefer Perspective for sammā diṭṭhi, and diṭṭhi when as an aspect there of.

If we take the suttas to refer to views, i.e. an opinion on a matter, one could still have a perspective to look at the subject from. As an example, Socrates may not have known anything about a theory he was in dialogue about, but he knew how to look at/examine theories. And maybe that is the way to look at these passages from.

Unfortunately even precise language can be imprecise, particularly when in translation.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Herbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:40 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:13 am

chownah wrote:
Herbie wrote: Dependent on life I do form concepts.
How have you determined that the forming of concepts is dependent on life? I don't understand how this view can be supported. Isn't this just an assumption on your part?
chownah
From my perspective it isn't a view but an appropriate linguistic expression. Why? Because dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts. So it is the living human organism that is conscious and forms concepts.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

User avatar
dhammacoustic
Posts: 858
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:30 am
Location: Dhammaville

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:44 pm

Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:And on what condition do we form concepts?
Sorry but I do not speak in such terms like "we", "our" or "us". When I speak I am expressing myself. I am not a spokesman of a collective.
I understand.

As I said; the rest is your play. It's all subjective..
Dependent on life I do form concepts.
Please define life.
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote: dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.
Taken that way conceptual imputation is a dynamic process
Of course it is.

And this was my earlier statement (which you disagreed with): "suffering is existentially a product of dynamism"

Herbie wrote: I do not believe what you say because existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation only.
This is just another concept: "existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation", is it not? It is still a dynamic mental form, a certain quality that has a certain value. A concept, consists of a subject (you) and an object (existence). A subject (you), consists of an object (existence) and a concept (existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation only). At least this much we can understand.. Thereby, we can conclude that a human being is not really in a position to speak on behalf of the existential reality of existence. Experientially speaking, the only choice we get is to accept or deny the abstract entities, which is a conditional, subjective process. And the fact that there is no difference that does not make a difference; sort of proves my point: "existence exists independent of human interpretation"

So, if you're going to introduce something that "is" as something "is the case", I'd rather have you share an objective observation, like I did with suffering & dynamic existence..
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

chownah
Posts: 7377
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:30 pm

Herbie wrote:
chownah wrote:How have you determined that the forming of concepts is dependent on life? I don't understand how this view can be supported. Isn't this just an assumption on your part?
chownah
From my perspective it isn't a view but an appropriate linguistic expression. Why? Because dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts. So it is the living human organism that is conscious and forms concepts.
Call it what you want....but you have just shifted the discussion without really changing it much....so I will shift my question but will not change it much as it seems you are still just going with assumptions i.e. How have you determined that dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts? I don't understand how this view (or linguistic expression if you wish) can be supported. Isn't this just assuming on your part?

You are talking about things you know nothing about I guess but I don't know for sure.
chownah

Herbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:40 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:24 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:And on what condition do we form concepts?
Sorry but I do not speak in such terms like "we", "our" or "us". When I speak I am expressing myself. I am not a spokesman of a collective.
I understand.

As I said; the rest is your play. It's all subjective..
not really subjective. why? because subjective is just a conceptual imputation.
dhammacoustic wrote:
Dependent on life I do form concepts.
Please define life.
See there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote: dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.
Taken that way conceptual imputation is a dynamic process
Of course it is.

And this was my earlier statement (which you disagreed with): "suffering is existentially a product of dynamism"
you did not express yourself clearly since there are several meanings of "dynamism".

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote: I do not believe what you say because existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation only.
This is just another concept: "existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation", is it not?
Of course, everthing in our communication exists only dependent on conceptual imputation. So your elaborations that follow exist for your only dependent on your conceptual imputations.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

Herbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:40 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:30 pm

chownah wrote:
Herbie wrote:
chownah wrote:How have you determined that the forming of concepts is dependent on life? I don't understand how this view can be supported. Isn't this just an assumption on your part?
chownah
From my perspective it isn't a view but an appropriate linguistic expression. Why? Because dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts. So it is the living human organism that is conscious and forms concepts.
Call it what you want....but you have just shifted the discussion without really changing it much....so I will shift my question but will not change it much as it seems you are still just going with assumptions i.e. How have you determined that dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts?
I am applying linguistic expressions compliant with scientific linguistic convention. This is my decision. That's all.
chownah wrote: I don't understand how this view (or linguistic expression if you wish) can be supported. Isn't this just assuming on your part?
I am applying language as deemed appropriate.
chownah wrote: You are talking about things you know nothing about I guess but I don't know for sure.
Language is just language.

if you prefer alternative expressions, please go ahead.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

chownah
Posts: 7377
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by chownah » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:15 am

Herbie wrote:
chownah wrote:
Herbie wrote:From my perspective it isn't a view but an appropriate linguistic expression. Why? Because dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts. So it is the living human organism that is conscious and forms concepts.
Call it what you want....but you have just shifted the discussion without really changing it much....so I will shift my question but will not change it much as it seems you are still just going with assumptions i.e. How have you determined that dead matter would not be conscious and dead matter would not form concepts?
I am applying linguistic expressions compliant with scientific linguistic convention. This is my decision. That's all.
chownah wrote: I don't understand how this view (or linguistic expression if you wish) can be supported. Isn't this just assuming on your part?
I am applying language as deemed appropriate.
chownah wrote: You are talking about things you know nothing about I guess but I don't know for sure.
Language is just language.

if you prefer alternative expressions, please go ahead.
Oh, good! I think I understand now. There is no support for the things you asserted that I have questioned.... Glad I understand this now.
chownah

Herbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:40 am

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:34 am

chownah wrote: Oh, good! I think I understand now. There is no support for the things you asserted that I have questioned.... Glad I understand this now.
chownah
There is support according to science and I have applied science's convention here. So to say "There is no support" is wrong. you do not have to agree with science's convention but that does not negate that there is support according to science.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

chownah
Posts: 7377
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by chownah » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:34 am

Herbie wrote:
chownah wrote: Oh, good! I think I understand now. There is no support for the things you asserted that I have questioned.... Glad I understand this now.
chownah
There is support according to science and I have applied science's convention here. So to say "There is no support" is wrong. you do not have to agree with science's convention but that does not negate that there is support according to science.
Finally! After three tries you have finally said that it is a convention of science which supports these views of yours. And of course IF I disagree with science's convention it does not negate the support you claim but then neither does it confirm the support you claim.....and.....just because you claim this support does not mean that science's conventions actually do give you support. Let's examine your claim that science's convention supports your views in this matter. I have studied science's conventions at great length and I am not aware of the convention you refer to. Can you give a clear statement of the convention of science which you think is giving support?...and can you show some scientific evidence which supports the convention?...maybe some scholarly reference?....something which directly supports that the forming of concepts is dependent on life (which is your statement which originated our exchange).
chownah

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], KenD, Majestic-12 [Bot], markandeya and 54 guests