What does it mean to have no views?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
pegembara
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by pegembara » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:14 am

SarathW wrote:It appears to me that any thing short of Nibbana is a view.
"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning,
Fire Sermon
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Mkoll
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Mkoll » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:30 am

pegembara wrote:Views and thoughts are conjoined. They cannot be separated. To form a view requires thoughts. That's the point.
Possibly. It's also possible that views begin to form in a child before language is learned well enough to form concrete thoughts. I dunno though; I am not educated in human development nor am I wise enough to give a clear answer.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Herbie
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Herbie wrote:
SarathW wrote:It appears to me that any thing short of Nibbana is a view.
never mind. that's just a view.
And so is your statement.
Depends. What you can know is that it is a linguistic expression.

So what makes a linguistic expression a view?
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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tiltbillings
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:06 am

Herbie wrote: Depends. What you can know is that it is a linguistic expression.
About something of which you have no experience, making the statement a view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SarathW
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:18 pm

It appears just having an experience alone is not enough to qualify as no views.
Our experience could be an illusion too.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

denise
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by denise » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:27 pm

nothing comes to mind :idea:

sattva
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by sattva » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:34 pm

denise wrote:nothing comes to mind :idea:
:lol: :clap:

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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:45 pm

denise wrote:nothing comes to mind :idea:
I think this could be another level.
It sound like first Jhana. (No vitakka and Vicara)
However this is a temporary state. When you emerge from Jhana, you are back to square one.
If you get there with Vipassana, perhaps you could be a Sotapanna and eliminated the personality view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dhammacoustic
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:56 am

Herbie wrote:No, suffering exists only dependent on conceptual imputation.
And what is conceptual imputation dependent on?
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote: and is existentially a product of dynamism.
no, a product of conceptual imputation
Conceptual imputation is not a dynamic process?
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:In plain English; reality exists independent of our will, thoughts and concepts, and it is an ever-changing, ever-dynamic reality :yingyang: And suffering is a product of it.
Reality only exists depending on conceptual imputation. But since from my perspective "reality" means absence of inherent existence in objects/phenomena "in reality nothing matters" actually means "for one who sees reality nothing matters" which is a psychological description.
Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.

The rest, is your lila.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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tiltbillings
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:11 am

dhammacoustic wrote:
The rest, is your lila.
And how does lila, a Hindu concept grounded in the notion of an active absolute beingness, have relevance to the Buddha's teachings?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

pegembara
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:43 am

SarathW wrote:It appears just having an experience alone is not enough to qualify as no views.
Our experience could be an illusion too.
But the Buddha still experienced pain, cold and hunger. Does that qualify as having no views?
“Alas, what shall I eat” and “where indeed eat it”,
“last night l slept badly” and “where sleep today”—
one-in-training, a wanderer, of no flag the follower
should such thoughts let go, leading to lamentation.

https://suttacentral.net/en/snp4.16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by SarathW » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:52 am

We can experience views as wisdom.

===============
As soon as the mind thinks of something we send it out, send it out every time. We don't realize that it's simply the habitual proliferation of the mind. It disguises itself as wisdom and waffles off into minute detail. This mental proliferation seems very clever, if we didn't know we would mistake it for wisdom. But when it comes to the crunch it's not the real thing. When suffering arises where is that so-called wisdom then? Is it of any use? It's only proliferation after all.


http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Not_Sure_Standard.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Herbie
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Herbie wrote: Depends. What you can know is that it is a linguistic expression.

So what makes a linguistic expression a view?
About something of which you have no experience, making the statement a view.
I don't think that your expression is appropriate. A linguistic expression expresses an idea which is an object of consciousness and holding that object to be true in itself is called a view.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

pegembara
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:32 am

Views aren't wisdom. Wisdom is transcendence
Don't cling to things, holding fast to them without letting go. Look at things as functions of the apparent and then send them on to transcendence. That's how you must be. There must be appearance and there must be transcendence.

No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it, ''Not sure!'' Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, ''It's not sure, it's transient.'' Just ram it down with this.

Whatever we see or hear, be it pleasant or sorrowful, just say ''This is not sure!'' Say it heavy to yourself, hold it all down with this. Don't build those things up into major issues, just keep them all down to this one. This point is the important one. This is the point where defilements die.

This truth of uncertainty, this short and simple truth, at the same time so profound and faultless, people tend to ignore. They tend to see things differently. Don't cling to goodness, don't cling to badness. These are attributes of the world. We are practicing to be free of the world, so bring these things to an end. The Buddha taught to lay them down, to give them up, because they only cause suffering.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:36 am

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:No, suffering exists only dependent on conceptual imputation.
And what is conceptual imputation dependent on?
Dependent on having formed concepts.
dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote: and is existentially a product of dynamism.
no, a product of conceptual imputation
Conceptual imputation is not a dynamic process?
you should express yourself more precise from the outset:
Dynamism has several meanings.

Dynamism (metaphysics), a cosmological explanation of the material world
Dynamism (computing), a computer term for management of simultaneous operations
Dynamicism, the application of dynamical systems theory to cognitive science
"Plastic dynamism", a term used by the Italian futurist art movement to describe an object's intrinsic and extrinsic motion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:In plain English; reality exists independent of our will, thoughts and concepts, and it is an ever-changing, ever-dynamic reality :yingyang: And suffering is a product of it.
Reality only exists depending on conceptual imputation. But since from my perspective "reality" means absence of inherent existence in objects/phenomena "in reality nothing matters" actually means "for one who sees reality nothing matters" which is a psychological description.
Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.
That may be a kind of metaphysical belief which I do not share.
dhammacoustic wrote: The rest, is your lila.
?
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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dhammacoustic
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:
The rest, is your lila.
And how does lila, a Hindu concept grounded in the notion of an active absolute beingness, have relevance to the Buddha's teachings?
I just meant play, /used the word lila instead; "the rest is your play"..
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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dhammacoustic
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:52 am

Herbie wrote:Dependent on having formed concepts.
And on what condition do we form concepts?
Herbie wrote:you should express yourself more precise from the outset:
Dynamism has several meanings.

Dynamism (metaphysics), a cosmological explanation of the material world
Dynamism (computing), a computer term for management of simultaneous operations
Dynamicism, the application of dynamical systems theory to cognitive science
"Plastic dynamism", a term used by the Italian futurist art movement to describe an object's intrinsic and extrinsic motion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dynamic existence, as in; existence is dynamic and it cannot be otherwise; things cannot exist unless they are dynamic.

dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.
That may be a kind of metaphysical belief which I do not share.
It is an observation, rather than a belief.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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tiltbillings
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:43 pm

dhammacoustic wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:
The rest, is your lila.
And how does lila, a Hindu concept grounded in the notion of an active absolute beingness, have relevance to the Buddha's teachings?
I just meant play, /used the word lila instead; "the rest is your play"..
Since lila is not a Buddhist term, as we see above, it is understood.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by daverupa » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 pm

Oh, and besides MN 74, I notice:
clw_uk wrote:... there seems to be a hint that an Arahant does not hold views or opinions at all.
MN 22 points out that on the way to awakening there is a "right grasp" approach to right view, and also wrong ones. This right view is in fact a regularity of the way things are (SN 12.20), which means that "an arahant holds no views" doesn't mean he is view-less, it means that this right view is not held/clung to.

As DN 1 says:
...When, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact, their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, then he understands what transcends all these views [yet even that understanding he does not misapprehend.].
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Herbie
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:19 am

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:Dependent on having formed concepts.
And on what condition do we form concepts?
Sorry but I do not speak in such terms like "we", "our" or "us". When I speak I am expressing myself. I am not a spokesman of a collective.
Dependent on life I do form concepts.
dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:you should express yourself more precise from the outset:
Dynamism has several meanings.

Dynamism (metaphysics), a cosmological explanation of the material world
Dynamism (computing), a computer term for management of simultaneous operations
Dynamicism, the application of dynamical systems theory to cognitive science
"Plastic dynamism", a term used by the Italian futurist art movement to describe an object's intrinsic and extrinsic motion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dynamic existence, as in; existence is dynamic and it cannot be otherwise; things cannot exist unless they are dynamic.

dynamism: the quality of being characterized by activity and progress.
Taken that way conceptual imputation is a dynamic process

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Existence exists independent of human interpretation, and we are physically born into it.
That may be a kind of metaphysical belief which I do not share.
dhammacoustic wrote: It is an observation, rather than a belief.
I do not believe what you say because existence exists dependent on conceptual imputation only.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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