What does it mean to have no views?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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equilibrium
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by equilibrium » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:29 am

clw_uk wrote:However I think it's far more interesting to ask if Buddha really believed in the doctrines he expounded, in terms of kamma and rebirth, or if he merely viewed them as being useful? Or perhaps you could say that they aren't views when directly known? I'm not sure.
Buddha taught based on a believe?.....a view?....a fabrication?
clw_uk wrote:
SarathW wrote:That is nihilism.
Buddha avoid both eternalism and nihilism and taught dependent origination.
According to Buddha's teaching both eternalism and nihilism are just wrong views. They are neither right nor wrong.
What makes materialism nihilistic? You can still find meaning in a materialistic universe.

However this is off track. The question is about what it means to hold no views in Buddhism. Why is dependent origination not classed as a view point?
To hold no views would be to transcend the not-self (I-am).
Dependent origination can be classed as a view because it is headed by Ignorance.....and that Ignorance can be transcended when the not-self (I-am) is reached.
Same goes with kamma and rebirth.....yet one is released from that cycle when the not-self (I-am) is reached.

The reason there are views because one is still in it.....samsara.....duality.....right and wrong.....good and bad.....conventional/mundane.....based on a self (I-am).
"There is that dimension".....beyond duality.....reality/supra-mundane.....based on not-self (I-am).
Ud 8.1.....There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Ud 8.3.....There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

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dhammacoustic
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:02 pm

Wonderful thread.

An important fact here to notice is that; not all concepts work the same for everyone.

"Death is nothing to us. When we are alive, we are not dead. When we are dead, we do not exist". - Epicurus

These are not words of anxiety, and the "ucchedavadin" still lived a virtuous life although he defended hedonism; "do not harm, nor be harmed". So what does it mean to have no views? In my understanding, it means not making a habit of clinging to ideas sustained by impermanent sensations, so that we can die unconfused. Because 'confusion' itself is a mental state, vicikiccha.

As the Buddha put it; "sankhara-nirodha vinnana-nirodho. Vinnana-nirodha nama-rupa-nirodho"

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

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Alex123
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Alex123 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:20 pm

Hello clw_uk,

I also have a same question. On one hand many suttas in what some consider to be earlier or one of the earliest strata of Buddhist teaching there is teaching about not having any views. On the other hand, in the suttas there are plenty of teachings that look like views: 5 aggregates, 12 spheres, 18 elements, etc. Even teaching of Kamma. Does kamma exist or not? If it exists, then why does it have to follow Buddhist (not Jain, or some other) rules?
Also the vipassana vs samatha debate. In what way doesn't it depends on views?


Also, in order to make sense of any sense-data, it has to be part of some worldview. "Bare" empiric observation devoid of any background view is impossible.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

santa100
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by santa100 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:19 pm

The Buddha didn't encourage a "no-view" approach to Dhamma practitioners, at least not to those who have not reached any Noble attainment. Otherwise, in His Noble Eightfold Path, He would've taught No-view instead of Right-View/SammaDitthi and He wouldn't have spent so much energy distinguishing right view from wrong view in so many suttas:
MN 117 wrote:...And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

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Mkoll
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:29 pm

equilibrium wrote:The reason there are views because one is still in it.....samsara.....duality.....right and wrong.....good and bad.....conventional/mundane.....based on a self (I-am).
I think that's as good an explanation as any. Clinging to views (as me, mine, myself) necessarily requires the condition of the conceit "I am." Only fully enlightened ones have abandoned this conceit, so everyone other than them is clinging to views, subtly or not so subtly.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by SarathW » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:22 pm

Agee.
Self view is the ultimate wrong view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dan74-new
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Dan74-new » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:40 am

Mkoll wrote:
Dan74-new wrote:
Mkoll wrote: If you have Right View, with a capital R and V, i.e. Noble, i.e. at least a stream-winner, by definition you can't be a crap follower of sila.
Sure, but are we really talking about stream-enterers here?
I thought you might be because you used "Right View" as a proper noun.
I wasn't aware of this distinction. Some folks are clearly talking about Right View and some about right view. Some about clinging to views and some about not having any views at all. It's a spectrum!

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Mkoll
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:00 am

Dan74-new wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Dan74-new wrote:Sure, but are we really talking about stream-enterers here?
I thought you might be because you used "Right View" as a proper noun.
I wasn't aware of this distinction. Some folks are clearly talking about Right View and some about right view. Some about clinging to views and some about not having any views at all. It's a spectrum!
Yes, that is true. And the distinction may not be common parlance—it just made sense to me. Maybe "Noble Right View" would be less ambiguous.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

vinasp
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by vinasp » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:42 pm

Hi everyone,

What does it mean to have no views?

First, we need to be clear about what 'views' are. This is difficult.

The basic meaning of 'view' (ditthi) seems to be something like: a way of seeing. But the actual meaning depends on the context, we can discern the following meanings:

1. A speculative 'worldview', the false 'reality' that someone has constructed for themselves, these are delusions. The Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1) describes sixty-two views of this kind.

2. All these speculative views are elaborations of a small set of simpler, and deeper views such as the 'view of self' (attanuditthi), and the conceit 'I am', which is called a view in MN 9.

3. There is also something called 'right view' which is different from the above views. It is explained as: correct understanding or wisdom, and it includes an understanding of how views of type 1 originate and how their cessation can be brought about. This right view, understanding or wisdom is small and weak at first, but can be developed, as it is developed it reduces ignorance, and with full development ignorance is eliminated and awakening is attained.

-------------------------------------

Does the Arahant Have No Views?

Yes, if views are understood in the narrow sense as explained above.

No, if views are understood in the normal English sense.

In normal English, views would include beliefs, and it is difficult to imagine a person with no beliefs. Some philosophers make no distinction between knowledge and belief. But a person with no knowledge simply could not function in the world, think of a new-born baby which needs to be cared for by adults. In any case, the Arahant is said to have knowledge.

The Arahant must have knowledge and beliefs about ordinary everyday things. What he does not do is construct a false reality through feeling and craving.

It is possible that awakening includes a realization that 'true reality' cannot be grasped by the conceptual mind. But conceptual thinking is still required for practical everyday things.

With kind regards, Vincent.

Herbie
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:The question is about what it means to hold no views in Buddhism.
"in Buddhism" is appropriate only if you actually are holding a view because "to hold no views in Buddhism" is to hold a buddhist view.
clw_uk wrote: Why is dependent origination not classed as a view point?
There being no independent truth where might a view be based on?

So "having no views" actually means impartiality or being non-partisan or metaphorically "homelessness".
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:21 am

There being no independent truth where might a view be based on?
That which is dynamic, and that which is still.

Because if there is no stillness, nothing really matters.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

Herbie
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Herbie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:24 am

dhammacoustic wrote:... nothing really matters.
yes, in reality nothing matters.
Inspiration is based on the exchange of different linguistic expressions. But inspiration is best knowing how language relates to truth. :smile:

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dhammacoustic
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by dhammacoustic » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:56 am

Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:... nothing really matters.
yes, in reality nothing matters.
And it doesn't matter that nothing matters, suffering exists independent of axiological concepts, and is existentially a product of dynamism.
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

Planetary
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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by Planetary » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:10 am

To me it means you don't let things mix. Thought is thought, mental formations are mental formations, intentions are intentions, fabrications are fabrications, feelings are feelings, etc. To literally believe in a view is just construing something out of these elements.

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Re: What does it mean to have no views?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:29 am

dhammacoustic wrote:
Herbie wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:... nothing really matters.
yes, in reality nothing matters.
And it doesn't matter that nothing matters, suffering exists independent of axiological concepts, and is existentially a product of dynamism.
And this what in plain English?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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