Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Kaneki
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Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by Kaneki » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:24 pm

I've found that the development of the eightfold path leads to the development of 2 further factors, right knowledge and right liberation. On Wikipedia, right knowledge is described as "Right knowledge is seeing things as they really are by direct experience, not as they appear to be, nor as the practitioner wants them to be, but as they truly are." How is this any different from supramundane right view? I just thought it was strange to tack on 2 more factors to the eightfold path, I don't understand why.

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Zom
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by Zom » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:54 pm

No, these are not the same. Right View is more about ditthi (belief) than about direct knowledge. Thus, a stream-winner is perfect in Right Views, but imperfect in Direct Knowledge. Saddha (belief) is the base faculty of stream-entry.

Last two path factors are actually not the path. They are The Fruit.

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equilibrium
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by equilibrium » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:50 pm

The N8P itself provides the "right view" / pointing / directing / aiming / looking towards.....to what is being directed. This is why N8P itself is the teaching.....but has a purpose / intention.....to enable one to cross the shore.

The "right knowledge" or rather "direct knowledge" is the end results of following the N8P. It is directly known by oneself.

Under Teacher of the Devas (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el414.html)
The supreme aim, however, is arahantship. If one has purified one's mind totally of greed, hate, and delusion, one would experience "the destruction of the taints." Hence the discourse culminates with a monk aspiring for arahantship:

Under MN 120.37:
"Oh, that by realizing for myself with direct knowledge, I might here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints!' And by realizing for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu does not reappear anywhere at all."
When one has completed the path, one does not hold views.....one has "wisdom".

SarathW
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:44 pm

Last two path factors are actually not the path. They are The Fruit.
Thanks can you give me the reference?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:15 pm

Greetings Zom,
Zom wrote:No, these are not the same. Right View is more about ditthi (belief) than about direct knowledge. Thus, a stream-winner is perfect in Right Views, but imperfect in Direct Knowledge. Saddha (belief) is the base faculty of stream-entry
Well said Zom. The only tweak I would make to what was said is that I would instead say that the stream-winner is self-sufficient in view, but that view is still amenable to greater refinement (consider here SN 12.15).

All I would add is to say that Right View means that one has learned to view properly. The way to view properly is taught in the suttas. Right Knowledge is the liberating knowledge that comes from viewing properly.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

SarathW
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:25 pm

Agree!
When you have the right knowledge, you do not have the views. (not even right view)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Zom
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Re: Right knowledge and right view technically the same?

Post by Zom » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:30 am

All I would add is to say that Right View means that one has learned to view properly. The way to view properly is taught in the suttas.
Ye, that's a nice definition 8-)

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