Right. That's why I applauded your comment.zavk wrote:I really applaud his arguments about the need for critical self-reflexivity, and I think this applies to all of us, irregardless of the tradition we identify with.
Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
This is a really cool idea, but for me it raises the question of when those "actual events" occurred (long before Gotama's time?), what those event were (precisely), and who was there at that time to record them precisely and encode them in symbolism for us. Probably impossible to answer.pink_trike wrote:This, imo, shows a large misunderstanding regarding how myths were carefully constructed to include a mythic surface layer that reflected literal objective truths stored in discreet folders and underlays within the myth...the mythic layer being a _precise_ symbolic representation of actual events and theoretical conclusions, but told in a way that would most efficiently imprint on the collective consciousness for passage forward into future generations over vast stretches of time. This architectural function begins to fail at some point along the trajectory forward as people begin to forget that there is an underlay and the surface becomes a distorted broken version of the original message as the symbolic begins to be taken as literal truth.
_________________________________
Practice.tiltbillings wrote:It is commentaries all around. Can't get away from them.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
DitoDugu wrote:I agree with Ajahn Sujato. That's why I only study the Sutta Pitaka.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
But since no "who" can be found, the question of "ownership" is trivial.pink_trike wrote: In one sense the debate boils down to "who owns Buddhism?"
Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
I was strictly referring to Abhidhamma. There is one wisdom that the Buddha taught was not to pursue things that isn't conducive to the holy life such as when some disciples want to know whether the universe is eternal or not eternal, whether there is a god or not, etc... the Buddha refuse to answer these questions because it is not going to help them to be liberated. And I believe the Buddha has already taught all we need to know to follow the path in the Sutta Pitaka and we should focus on following the path than indulge more on understanding the nature of reality which can be a hinderance to your practice if you are not careful. Not to say it can't help, you may gain some extra insights from studying Abhidhamma but it really isn't necessary. That's all I am saying.mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dugu,Yes, but I was also talking about the Commentary to those Suttas. To be consistent I presume you ignore the commentary of Ajahn Sujato and other modern teachers?Dugu wrote: I believe the Sutta Pitaka already has everything you need to lead a holy life and reach Enlightenment.
Metta
Mike
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Not impossible, but certainly difficult to address at any intelligent level of discourse within what has become a closed system that has a prevailing standard of "Buddha said it, I believe it".Jechbi wrote: This is a really cool idea, but for me it raises the question of when those "actual events" occurred (long before Gotama's time?), what those event were (precisely), and who was there at that time to record them precisely and encode them in symbolism for us. Probably impossible to answer.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- retrofuturist
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Greetings,
Some recent interesting (yet off-topic) posts have been split into a new topic...
How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2568
Thanks.
Metta,
Retro.
Some recent interesting (yet off-topic) posts have been split into a new topic...
How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2568
Thanks.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?Dugu wrote: I was strictly referring to Abhidhamma. There is one wisdom that the Buddha taught was not to pursue things that isn't conducive to the holy life such as when some disciples want to know whether the universe is eternal or not eternal, whether there is a god or not, etc... the Buddha refuse to answer these questions because it is not going to help them to be liberated. And I believe the Buddha has already taught all we need to know to follow the path in the Sutta Pitaka and we should focus on following the path than indulge more on understanding the nature of reality which can be a hinderance to your practice if you are not careful. Not to say it can't help, you may gain some extra insights from studying Abhidhamma but it really isn't necessary. That's all I am saying.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Greetings Tilt,
To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
Metta,
Retro.
Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments (whether or not one chooses to agree with them, or their underlying assumptions)?tiltbillings wrote:And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?
To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
I see people dismissing the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts without really knowing what is in them or how they function. As for Ajahn Sujato, he is an interesting guy, but why dismiss something out of hand based upon what someone else says? As for the Simpasa Sutta, how is it the the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts (and here I am NOT talking about later Abhidhamma expositions) step outside what the Buddha taught as being necessary for awakening?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments (whether or not one chooses to agree with them, or their underlying assumptions)?tiltbillings wrote:And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?
If you have no idea what is in them, how would you know?To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Greetings Tilt,
Metta,
Retro.
I could not add anything new and relevant which has not already been covered in the Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate, regarding whether it is classifiable under "those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught".tiltbillings wrote:As for the Simpasa Sutta, how is it the the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts (and here I am NOT talking about later Abhidhamma expositions) step outside what the Buddha taught as being necessary for awakening?
You would know, because the Buddha and the Arahants did not use them. Note the difference between "not essential for enlightenment" and "not conducive to enlightenment". You can logically say something is "not essential for enlightenment" without having a clue about whether or not it is "conducive to enlightenment". Hence, why I thought your interrogation of Dugu's comment was not particularly well targeted in terms of its logic.tiltbillings wrote:If you have no idea what is in them, how would you know?To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Hi Retro,
Metta
Mike
Since this is, after all, a Theravada Forum, it might be reasonable to consider going beyond the "lowest common denominator" approach advocated by Ajahn Sujato and at least consider the logically consistent position that that the Theravada Tipitika and Commentaries are accurate and those of the other sects are not.retrofuturist wrote: Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments ...
Metta
Mike
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
I have not been following that thread, so I have no idea what arguments have been made there. I have no problem with accepting the idea that the Buddha did not teach the texts in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but that deoes not mean that what is containted in those texts runs counter to the teachings of the Buddha either in letter or spirit.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
I could not add anything new and relevant which has not already been covered in the Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate, regarding whether it is classifiable under "those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught".tiltbillings wrote:As for the Simpasa Sutta, how is it the the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts (and here I am NOT talking about later Abhidhamma expositions) step outside what the Buddha taught as being necessary for awakening?
What is essential for awakeing? Is every sutta in the Sutta Pitaka an essential necessity for awakeing? Could what is essential be recast in a way that is skifulfull and appropriate to the situation?You would know, because the Buddha and the Arahants did not use them. Note the difference between "not essential for enlightenment" and "not conducive to enlightenment".tiltbillings wrote:If you have no idea what is in them, how would you know?To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
There are reasaons to not accept the Mahayana sutras as Buddha-word, but I do not find it very meaningful to do so without some idea of what one might find in them. I do not find it at all appropriate to dismiss the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts without a clue as to what they say and how they are to be used.
If one has not a clue as to what is actually contained within a text, then there is no basis to say it is not essential for awakening.You can logically say something is "not essential for enlightenment" without having a clue about whether or not it is "conducive to enlightenment".
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
How would you know that?mikenz66 wrote:Hi Retro,Since this is, after all, a Theravada Forum, it might be reasonable to consider going beyond the "lowest common denominator" approach advocated by Ajahn Sujato and at least consider the logically consistent position that that the Theravada Tipitika and Commentaries are accurate and those of the other sects are not.retrofuturist wrote: Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments ...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism
Greetings Tilt,
Metta,
Retro.
That depends on what "it" is... the text itself or the wisdom obtainable from the text? I was talking of the text itself, as I assume Dugu was.tiltbillings wrote:If one has not a clue as to what is actually contained within a text, then there is no basis to say it is not essential for awakening.retrofuturist wrote:You can logically say something is "not essential for enlightenment" without having a clue about whether or not it is "conducive to enlightenment".
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."