In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

not applicable, there is no rebirth, it is annihilation for all
2
2%
no more becoming, non-existence as we know it but not annihilation since there is no self
44
36%
existence in a buddha-field / realm
4
3%
pantheism
7
6%
citta continues in paranibbana
12
10%
a subtle existence that is ineffable, inexpressible
23
19%
don't know or agnostic about it, set-aside for now
31
25%
 
Total votes: 123

SarathW
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:39 am

When you attain Nibbana, you have no reason to think (worry) about the residue. (that is the least to worry about)
So there is nothing called a Nibbana without residue.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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tiltbillings
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:28 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings,

The problem with the language here seems to be modelled around the polarity of "existence" and "non-existence", whereas the Dhamma is taught down the middle of the two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
A significantly important text that points to understanding the goal of practice in terms of paṭiccasamuppāda, and by not doing so, one ends up with taking all the terminology around nibbana (such as dhātu) as referring to some sort rarified something or other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:42 am

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali, in the Great Forest, at the Gabled Pavilion. Then, in the late afternoon, he left his seclusion and went to the sick ward and on arrival sat down on a prepared seat. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "A monk should approach the time of death mindful & alert. This is our instruction to you all.


"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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acinteyyo
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:13 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I thought the term parinibbana is just a particular designation for the event when the individual set of aggregates of "one thus gone" finally break up. At least, that's how I understand the term.
Yes, but then what? Many Buddhists have varying ideas of what parinibbana entails after that. For the unenlightened, the Suttas are very straightforward; it is rebirth. But when the task is done, then what? The are many vague teachings, such as the synonyms for Nibbana or to say that there is no more suffering or to say none of the 4 possibilities apply; but is there existence? The Suttas say no. Is there non-existence? The Suttas say no. However, many have noted that it is not annihilation since there is no self to annihilate. Hence this poll just to see what DW posters feel is the most specific (non-vague) response.
The problem I see here, David, is that the urge to ask "but then what?" is nothing but a manifestation of tanha and any attempt to find an answer is giving attention to an inappropriate and futile pursuit, that is a desperate attempt of the self to reach for a last stem to hold on to, because otherwise its being is seriously in danger. With nothing to hold on to and identify with a self view cannot be maintained any further. Therefore I don't fancy to support the search for an answer to such questions, because it does not lead to disenchantment, quite the contrary it rather leads to proliferation and wild speculation and enforces the hindrances instead of weakening them.

I've noticed many times, when it comes to this point, that seemingly people are much more interessted in getting soothing answers instead of taking on the problem of suffering by "looking straight into the abyss of [their] own personal existence", because facing suffering directly is terrifying and so many prefer to turn away and hide from the problem; instead of taking it on and possibly reach liberation.

I appologize in advance if anybody feels offended by what I've said in this post. It's just another insignificant opinion.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:37 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Yes I agree with what you wrote for the advanced practitioner. For the beginner, these can be important considerations. I have heard many practitioners say that they have heard people say that if they knew about anatta at the onset, they would have abandoned the path or if they knew the classical position on nibbana, that they would have abandoned the path at the onset. Later on when they learned about it, they were well enough along the path to understand it better and at least intellectually accept it. Of course this doesn't mean that we should hide it from them, but by discussing it, we can assure them that the path is still something to pursue, that it can be something to set-aside for now.

Definitely, I agree a lot of this has to do with craving for existence. It is a powerful desire, eradicated fully only by the arahant. Even the anagami has some residue of craving for existence.

My choices:

Number 2, no more becoming as what parinibbana is according to the texts.
Number 6, subtle existence as to what I'd like it to be. Still some craving for existence, not an arahant yet. :tongue:
Number 7, set it aside for now, the best choice for practice in the here-and-now

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Aloka
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Aloka » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:51 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
I appologize in advance if anybody feels offended by what I've said in this post. It's just another insignificant opinion.
I'm certainly not offended by what you've said, acinteyyo . Additionally, in my own insignificant opinion, the simple sentence I quoted from "The Island "earlier, is my own understanding of Parinibbana which I can see no reason to change :
Instead the term means, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has attained Nibbana during their life
With metta,

Aloka

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acinteyyo
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:47 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

Yes I agree with what you wrote for the advanced practitioner. For the beginner, these can be important considerations. I have heard many practitioners say that they have heard people say that if they knew about anatta at the onset, they would have abandoned the path or if they knew the classical position on nibbana, that they would have abandoned the path at the onset. Later on when they learned about it, they were well enough along the path to understand it better and at least intellectually accept it. Of course this doesn't mean that we should hide it from them, but by discussing it, we can assure them that the path is still something to pursue, that it can be something to set-aside for now.

Definitely, I agree a lot of this has to do with craving for existence. It is a powerful desire, eradicated fully only by the arahant. Even the anagami has some residue of craving for existence.

My choices:

Number 2, no more becoming as what parinibbana is according to the texts.
Number 6, subtle existence as to what I'd like it to be. Still some craving for existence, not an arahant yet. :tongue:
Number 7, set it aside for now, the best choice for practice in the here-and-now
You are probably right. I think I just lack the necessary skills to see what is the right approach for one or another when encountering the Dhamma for the first time and from that most likely originates my view. In my case, realizing how much suffering suffering creates has lead me right to the path, not away from it. However I see that there are many different dispositions and tendencies for different individuals and other may need or prefer a different way in order follow the path. That's fine, of course; and as long as it doesn't end up in self-deception it'll also lead to liberation sooner or later.
Aloka wrote:I'm certainly not offended by what you've said, acinteyyo . Additionally, in my own insignificant opinion, the simple sentence I quoted from "The Island "earlier, is my own understanding of Parinibbana which I can see no reason to change
:anjali:

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

SarathW
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:25 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

Yes I agree with what you wrote for the advanced practitioner. For the beginner, these can be important considerations. I have heard many practitioners say that they have heard people say that if they knew about anatta at the onset, they would have abandoned the path or if they knew the classical position on nibbana, that they would have abandoned the path at the onset. Later on when they learned about it, they were well enough along the path to understand it better and at least intellectually accept it. Of course this doesn't mean that we should hide it from them, but by discussing it, we can assure them that the path is still something to pursue, that it can be something to set-aside for now.

Definitely, I agree a lot of this has to do with craving for existence. It is a powerful desire, eradicated fully only by the arahant. Even the anagami has some residue of craving for existence.

My choices:

Number 2, no more becoming as what parinibbana is according to the texts.
Number 6, subtle existence as to what I'd like it to be. Still some craving for existence, not an arahant yet. :tongue:
Number 7, set it aside for now, the best choice for practice in the here-and-now
Hi David I object to your choices! :stirthepot:
You modify the statements. (Your statements are not in line with the statements in the poll.
You can't chose number 2 and the No 6 the same time.

I also object to the idea that we should not teach Anatta to a beginner. I got back to Buddhism once I realised the teaching of Anatta. Without this teaching (wisdom) there is no difference between Buddhism and any other religion. (only minor variations)

I agree with Acintayo. The problem is we are trying to hang on to some thing without letting go. We are trying to objectify the Nibbana so we got some thing to hold on to. I think Buddha warn us against this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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tiltbillings
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:31 pm

SarathW wrote:
I agree with Acintayo. The problem is we are trying to hang on to some thing without letting go. We are trying to objectify the Nibbana so we got some thing to hold on to. I think Buddha warn us against this.
Yes, but the need for being somebody is great.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:35 pm

SarathW wrote: Hi David I object to your choices! :stirthepot:
You modify the statements. (Your statements are not in line with the statements in the poll.
You can't chose number 2 and the No 6 the same time.

I also object to the idea that we should not teach Anatta to a beginner. I got back to Buddhism once I realised the teaching of Anatta. Without this teaching (wisdom) there is no difference between Buddhism and any other religion. (only minor variations)
Objection overruled. :D

I added qualifiers to my statements because someone did ask on a previous page what we would like it to be. But I don't necessarily think that is what it is, just what a preference might be. Others may not want to use the qualifiers I did, so can answer differently. Yes anatta could be taught to some beginners, there are different techniques to teach to different people, different temperaments -- it is not a one size fit all in regard to techniques of teaching.

SarathW
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:09 am

It is easier to understand Nibbana if you think that you are deity (a god)
Assume for a moment that you do not have this physical body but only the mind.
In that case how do you see Nibbana?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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acinteyyo
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:36 pm

SarathW wrote:It is easier to understand Nibbana if you think that you are deity (a god)
Assume for a moment that you do not have this physical body but only the mind.
In that case how do you see Nibbana?
:thinking:
I'm sorry SarathW but this is absolute nonsense!
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

SarathW
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:57 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
SarathW wrote:It is easier to understand Nibbana if you think that you are deity (a god)
Assume for a moment that you do not have this physical body but only the mind.
In that case how do you see Nibbana?
:thinking:
I'm sorry SarathW but this is absolute nonsense!
Can you explain why?
Cant you see Nibbana in a deity's point of view?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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acinteyyo
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:28 pm

SarathW wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
SarathW wrote:It is easier to understand Nibbana if you think that you are deity (a god)
Assume for a moment that you do not have this physical body but only the mind.
In that case how do you see Nibbana?
:thinking:
I'm sorry SarathW but this is absolute nonsense!
Can you explain why?
Cant you see Nibbana in a deity's point of view?
:thinking:
Nibbana is the end of greed, hatred and delusion. There is no need to invent any confusing point's of view or imaginations.
How do you even think it is possible to imagine "a deity's point of view"?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

SarathW
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Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:40 pm

Nibban is not the end of greed, hatred and delusion.
There is a Sutta to support this which I can't locate it.
Nibbana is the remainder less cessation of perception and feeling.

Why cant we think about deity or other realms?
Buddhism teaches about them.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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