In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

not applicable, there is no rebirth, it is annihilation for all
2
2%
no more becoming, non-existence as we know it but not annihilation since there is no self
44
36%
existence in a buddha-field / realm
4
3%
pantheism
7
6%
citta continues in paranibbana
12
10%
a subtle existence that is ineffable, inexpressible
23
19%
don't know or agnostic about it, set-aside for now
31
25%
 
Total votes: 123

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3372
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:21 am

I think a nice question is "what would you like parinibbana to be?".

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:26 am

Mr Man wrote:I think a nice question is "what would you like parinibbana to be?".
None of the above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 2800
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:58 pm

This is just food for thought. The Tibetan masters talk of very different things than theravadins, and they have a Tulkus tradition (reincarnation of great buddhist masters). I think there have been a lot of enlightened tibetan buddhist masters, so the truth about pariinibbana is somewhere in the middle for me. My favorite school is theravada and I think we have the clearest maps and methodologies. But I also think a few things are missing from the theravada school.

So, while I am unsure about this, obviously, I think the citta continues. Just like matter's nature is to be tangible, the citta's nature is awareness. And just like "Nothing changes, everything transforms" with matter, something similar happens with the citta. Parinibbana is probably the full consequence of enlightenment, but the citta is not destructible; just changeable. So there must be something. But this is just a vague theory
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3372
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I think a nice question is "what would you like parinibbana to be?".
None of the above.
I think asking oneself the question and investigating why we would like it to be that way can be an interesting contemplation.

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5796
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by Aloka » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:32 pm

There are some comments about Parinibbana in "The Island" by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, in Chapter 11, from page 180 onwards ....

"Reappears Does Not Apply..."

IN HIS FRIENDLY REBUKE TO ANURADHA THE BUDDHA pointed out that, given that the Tathagata was unapprehendable even while the body was both alive and present, it was even more unfitting to conceive any idea whatsoever as to what the nature of a Tathagata might be once the body has died. It is because of this principle of unapprehendability that, in the conventions of the Buddhist tradition, one never speaks of the Buddha as having ‘died.’ To assert so would imply an identification with the body and personality that the Master had, since the enlightenment, ceased to possess.

It might be argued that the avoidance of such usages is simply the attempt of the faithful to legitimize their clinging to their beloved mentor. Maybe so – but a little serious investigation and contemplation of the teachings contained both in
this and the previous chapter, will make it obvious that this practice is simply an exercising of the Buddha’s injunctions on how to relate to the quality in question in accordance with reality.

Instead of ‘death’ such terms as ‘attained final Nibbana’ are used, the latter words being a translation of ‘Parinibbana.’ In most Buddhist literature the word Nibbana is taken to signify Nibbana as experienced in life and Parinibbana as what occurs at the death of the body of an enlightened being. This is an oversimplification (e.g. in the Sutta Nipata ‘Parinibbana’ is often used to apply to a living arahant; furthermore the word can also mean the act of quenching whilst ‘Nibbana,’ in that context, means the state of quenchedness) but it is fair enough to say that the above sense is what the words usually mean and that is how we will use them here.

The Buddha was extraordinarily resolute in saying nothing about what happens after the death of the body of an enlightened one; therefore, one small point to clarify at the beginning is that when the noun Parinibbana is used to denote
this, it does not mean ‘Nibbana after death.’ Even though such phrases as ‘gone to Parinibbana’ are in common usage, they lack technical accuracy for they can imply that Parinibbana is some kind of special place – a sort of super-heaven that is somehow permanent and that one never dies in or falls away from.

Instead the term means, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has attained Nibbana during their life.


CONTINUED :

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... e_2015.pdf
Note :Emphasis of the last sentence is mine. :anjali:

.

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1691
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:07 pm

I thought the term parinibbana is just a particular designation for the event when the individual set of aggregates of "one thus gone" finally break up. At least, that's how I understand the term.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

SarathW
Posts: 10325
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SarathW » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:To accompany the great Nibbana thread, to see where DW posters are on this topic. You can pick up to 3 choices, if you like, since some are similar. And you can change your vote as you gain more Insight and/or enlightenment. :tongue:
You need to add a "None of the above" option.
I am tend to agree with Tilt.
I feel all the items assumes that there is a person who is going to attain Nibbana.
I am leaning towards No 2 an No 7, however the statements are flowed.
========
No.2: no more becoming, non-existence as we know it but not annihilation since there is no self.

I agree, it is not becoming. The rest of the statement does not make any sense to me.


No 7 : don't know or agnostic about it, set-aside for now

I cant say I don't know. I have some taste of it. But I do not know it in final sense.
I agree with the statement "set-aside for now", however it does not mean I have given it up.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by daverupa » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:15 pm

Aloka wrote:...

The Buddha was extraordinarily resolute in saying nothing about what happens after the death of the body of an enlightened one; therefore, one small point to clarify at the beginning is that when the noun Parinibbana is used to denote this, it does not mean ‘Nibbana after death.’ Even though such phrases as ‘gone to Parinibbana’ are in common usage, they lack technical accuracy for they can imply that Parinibbana is some kind of special place – a sort of super-heaven that is somehow permanent and that one never dies in or falls away from.

Instead the term means, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has attained Nibbana during their life.
acinteyyo wrote:I thought the term parinibbana is just a particular designation for the event when the individual set of aggregates of "one thus gone" finally break up. At least, that's how I understand the term.
:goodpost:

Glad that's settled. Functionally, this is probably #2 in the poll.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by kirk5a » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:22 pm

This doesn't sound like "non-existence as we know it" (do we know non-existence?) Doesn't sound like existence either.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 747
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by seeker242 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:30 pm

In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:
Just the end of suffering, and that's it, without any notions of existence or non existence, annihilation or not annihilation.

But, I don't see that as an option!

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:50 pm

kirk5a wrote:This doesn't sound like "non-existence as we know it" (do we know non-existence?) Doesn't sound like existence either.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This, however, not a description of parinibbana.

MN I 354, the Buddha states: My back aches. I will rest it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11871
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:44 am

acinteyyo wrote:I thought the term parinibbana is just a particular designation for the event when the individual set of aggregates of "one thus gone" finally break up. At least, that's how I understand the term.
Yes, but then what? Many Buddhists have varying ideas of what parinibbana entails after that. For the unenlightened, the Suttas are very straightforward; it is rebirth. But when the task is done, then what? The are many vague teachings, such as the synonyms for Nibbana or to say that there is no more suffering or to say none of the 4 possibilities apply; but is there existence? The Suttas say no. Is there non-existence? The Suttas say no. However, many have noted that it is not annihilation since there is no self to annihilate. Hence this poll just to see what DW posters feel is the most specific (non-vague) response.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20146
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:45 am

Greetings,

The problem with the language here seems to be modelled around the polarity of "existence" and "non-existence", whereas the Dhamma is taught down the middle of the two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by kirk5a » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:This doesn't sound like "non-existence as we know it" (do we know non-existence?) Doesn't sound like existence either.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This, however, not a description of parinibbana.

MN I 354, the Buddha states: My back aches. I will rest it.
Pretty sure it is, since it is the end of stress, and since it clearly does not refer to the nibbana element with residue because there is no arising or ceasing in it, that means it's the nibbana element without residue, aka parinibbana. No back aches in that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

SamKR
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: In your view, understanding, Parinibbana is:

Post by SamKR » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:37 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings,

The problem with the language here seems to be modelled around the polarity of "existence" and "non-existence", whereas the Dhamma is taught down the middle of the two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:goodpost:
I chose 6 and 7 though. Not 2 because this orthodox Theravada position seems to me as misleading and not to be in line with what the Pali Suttas are pointing towards. Although 6 is also misleading and not fully correct, IMO, I chose it because it emphasizes that Nibbana/parinibbana is inexplicable being beyond objectifications and conceptualizations but at the same time it is not oblivion or blankness.
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bundokji and 87 guests