What's after the end

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
mal4mac
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Re: What's after the end

Post by mal4mac » Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:11 pm

In "An Introduction to Buddhism" Peter Harvey puts across his own view of Nibbana as 'objectless consciousness', and contrasts it to the Theravadin tradition of seeing Nibbana as 'objectless', but regarding, 'conscious as always having an object... Nibbana is itself the object of the Arahat's consciousness.' p.76.

But, Harvey, also points out that the question of the state of an Arahat after death is one of a set of questions that the Buddha set aside without answering, because answering such questions is not conducive to practice and achieving Nibbana. Also, asking the question 'what's an Arahat after death?' has the misconception of a permanent self built into it.
- Mal

pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: What's after the end

Post by pegembara » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:19 pm

samseva wrote:
pegembara wrote:Eternal peace. After waking up, self identification with the mind-body ceases. Upon "death" all experiences end.
If all experience ends, then there is no eternal peace to experience. :D
Experiences are not peaceful.

"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?"

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning.

Fire Sermon

:buddha2:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

freedom
Posts: 195
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Re: What's after the end

Post by freedom » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:53 pm

Last night, I had a dream. In that dream, I went to some strange places and did many odd things. After waking up, where do that "I" in the dream go?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

SamKR
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Re: What's after the end

Post by SamKR » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:58 pm

A few relevant suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Sariputta:] "The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' objectifies non-objectification.[1] The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Vaccha, whatever cause, whatever reason there would be for describing him as 'possessed of form' or 'formless' or 'percipient' or 'non-percipient' or 'neither percipient nor non-percipient': If that cause, that reason, were to cease totally everywhere, totally in every way without remainder, then describing him by what means would one describe him as 'possessed of form' or 'formless' or 'percipient' or 'non-percipient' or 'neither percipient nor non-percipient'?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?

Mawkish1983
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Location: Essex, UK

Re: What's after the end

Post by Mawkish1983 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:32 pm

waterchan wrote:He went "poof".
Erm, that can have a different meaning.

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waterchan
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Location: Kamaloka

Re: What's after the end

Post by waterchan » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:56 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
waterchan wrote:He went "poof".
Erm, that can have a different meaning.
He went poof for good.

Shaswata_Panja
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Re: What's after the end

Post by Shaswata_Panja » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:09 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If a candle runs out of wax and ceases to burn, where does the flame go? Does it go to the East, the West, North, or South? Does it go up or down?

The flame ceases to exist..

pegembara
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Re: What's after the end

Post by pegembara » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:48 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If a candle runs out of wax and ceases to burn, where does the flame go? Does it go to the East, the West, North, or South? Does it go up or down?

The flame ceases to exist..
The flame is a dependently arisen phenomenon(dependent on conditions) and is not a thing. It is neither existent nor non existent.

What is after the end of a caterpillar's or tadpole's existence? Does it go to the East, the West, North, or South? Does it go up or down?
How is it that "what" is born doesn't appear to die?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

starphlo
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: What's after the end

Post by starphlo » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:44 am

Thanks for all your comments.
Rowboat, the quotes from Bikkhu Bodhi are right on target yet still leave me wondering. He describes it in everyway possible, as an actuality, a realm, a plane, a sphere, an element, a state, and a truth. "Realm, plane, sphere" seem to imply that it is some type of "place." "Element and state" imply a form. But maybe the words are just an attempt to describe something that can't be described.
I guess I would have to experience all the other 31 planes of existance before I can get a clue.

SamKR, I will read the references you provided and try to get my head around this.
I'll also read the rest of Bikkhu Bodhi's essay on Nibanna.
Much reading ahead!

Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
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Re: What's after the end

Post by Shaswata_Panja » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:05 pm

pegembara wrote:
Shaswata_Panja wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If a candle runs out of wax and ceases to burn, where does the flame go? Does it go to the East, the West, North, or South? Does it go up or down?

The flame ceases to exist..
The flame is a dependently arisen phenomenon(dependent on conditions) and is not a thing. It is neither existent nor non existent.

What is after the end of a caterpillar's or tadpole's existence? Does it go to the East, the West, North, or South? Does it go up or down?
How is it that "what" is born doesn't appear to die?


wikipedia says flame is existent..your line of reasoning can be extended to any object or phenomenon

starphlo
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: What's after the end

Post by starphlo » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:37 pm

A very good talk from Ajahn Brahm on this topic:
Digha Nikaya 9 Potthapada Sutta - States of Consciousness Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGuGRdBqWc8

There is also a very good part one:)
It seems "POOF" is pretty accurate!

Thank you all again.

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