Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hi everyone

This is my first post on this forum, and since my ideas tend to cause slight controversy within a classical Theravadin forum, I thought this post would be better in the "free for all".
My question is for people who undertake meditation, especially the Goenka or Mahasi tradition - How are you taught to "Abandon the Hindrances"? I have my own take on how to "Abandon the Hindrances" - but would like to hear other peoples views first.

Thanks

Brizzy

Hi Brizzy!
Rather than ask what other people think, why not just come out and tell us what you think!

Welcome!

Brizzy wrote: I have my own take on how to "Abandon the Hindrances" - but would like to hear other peoples views first.

Actually, rather than others put them selves out there first, given your lead in and question, maybe it might help if you were to give us an idea of your position.

Hi Brizzy,

There is plenty of literature on Mahasi medition, so it seems pointless to write an essay on it... Here are U Pandita's thoughts on Hindrances (and other problems):
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... /mara.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike

tiltbillings wrote:

Brizzy wrote: I have my own take on how to "Abandon the Hindrances" - but would like to hear other peoples views first.

Actually, rather than others put them selves out there first, given your lead in and question, maybe it might help if you were to give us an idea of your position.

Hi

Good idea. I may have time this week or at the latest this weekend.

Ben wrote:Hi Brizzy!
Rather than ask what other people think, why not just come out and tell us what you think!

Hi

Actually, I worded it wrong, it is not my own take on abandoning the hindrances, rather it is the importance I think should be given to the practice.
For my perspective on “abandoning the hindrances” I am using "Dvedhavitakka Sutta: Two Sorts of Thinking" (MN 19), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html although there are many others. “Abandoning the hindrances” IS the meditation IS the practice and any dhamma means that occur to an individual can be used. Mindfulness of breathing/ metta / reflection on the foul/ reflection of the noble truths/ personal reflections on death etc. etc. etc. All these can be used in the abandonment of the hindrances. As you can see from the sutta, the buddha abandoned his hindrances through thought processes "As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence."
Further in the sutta the buddha talks of the body and how "thinking and pondering" for a long time would cause the body to tire. The buddha is already in first jhana - practicing mindfulness of body. When he abandons thinking and pondering he enters second jhana and is still practicing mindfulness of body, and so on through the jhanas.
Mindfulness of body is always involved as right from the start what we think and feel can be experienced along with the body. As the practice progresses the mind finds gladness/joy and then the real job of mindfulness of body can begin. This insight/jhana approach is spelled out so often in the suttas and yet people still complain that the Buddha did not leave any meditation instructions. The Buddha did not appear to leave instructions on strange concentration practices where one is merely aware of sensations bubbling about the body while the mind is frozen with a superimposed "equanimity" that is just storing up trouble. He also did not appear to leave instructions about noting "rising" "rising" "falling" "falling" . These modern day insight practices seem to imply that by merely being "aware" insight will magically unfold. If we exam the buddhas teachings regarding wisdom then we can see that he taught a reflective/contemplative approach that when practiced evolves into greater samadhi & wisdom. As the samadhi becomes greater the wisdom becomes greater and less "thinking" is needed. This is all in the suttas but people seem to prefer a "special" mind numbing technique rather than what the buddha taught. I am not saying this is the only way but it is the most common approach to be found in the suttas ( if we ignore later interpretations of what is actually written) As an example in the suttas the jhanas are clearly described as states in which one is aware of the body and yet this idea is almost lost and jhana has been replaced by concentration exercises in which one can use determined effort and brute force to fix ones mind. To achieve the Buddhas jhanas one would use wisdom and peace to settle the mind. One thing that is also worth mentioning, the Buddha talks of the seven enlightenment factors, the second of these being investigation of the dhamma. I dont really know how much investigation can be undertaken when one is merely being aware or just noting physical phenomena. Another example could be anapana, where it is taught as a fixed meditation. If we read the sutta we see that the practicing monk has a real role in the meditation and not just a passive observational one. It is the practicing monk, who must figure out ways and means to calm the body/raise joy etc. That is not to say that these are not causally linked and will give rise to further progression, but it is the monk who must nurture their causes by thought. what do you think?

Hi Brizzy,

Brizzy wrote:what do you think?

I think the sky is blue and water is wet. What difference does it make what we think?

Here's how I was going to answer your original question, which was:

Brizzy wrote:How are you taught to "Abandon the Hindrances"?

The obvious answer is here. My own personal understanding of what I've been taught is that hindrances rise and pass away, and it's no use trying to kill them completely at this stage. So for example, when drowsiness arises, I have two basic choices: 1) Bring a little more viriya into the equation, maybe by taking a couple deliberate breaths, and sit through it, understanding what has arisen, and that it will pass away; or 2) take rest. So it's an ongoing process of facing whatever comes up, without expectations, and with equanimity.

Just my take. Having read your description of "strange concentration practices" and a "mind numbing technique" and so forth, I have to say, none of that bears any resemblance to my personal experience of what I've been taught. If you've found a method of practice that works for you, that's great! But I don't see the point of trying to denounce other approaches, if that's your intention.

Peace.

Hi Brizzy,

I don't see anything particularly controversial in what you say, apart from your overly simplistic view of what people are actually practising.

Brizzy wrote: These modern day insight practices seem to imply that by merely being "aware" insight will magically unfold.

I'm sure there are some teachers who teach like that, but I have not met any.

I dont' think that anyone who has spent any time with a genuine teacher thinks that the starting point of watching breath, or the motion or the abdomen or feet (which the Mahasi school would classify to a large extent as contemplation of the elements - as in the Satipatthana Sutta, the Commentaries, and the Visuddhimagga) is the entire practise. See, for example, U Pandita, "In this Very Life"
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here's a discussion on the hindrances from that book:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... Hindrances" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike

Brizzy wrote: ...but people seem to prefer a "special" mind numbing technique rather than what the buddha taught. ...

Mind numbing is hardly an accurate description of the Mahasi Sayadaw method. You seem to be criticizing what you do not know.

Brizzy,

tiltbillings wrote: You seem to be criticizing what you do not know.

I tend to agree with Tilt's assessment and the comments of other respondents to this thread.
Personally, I think it would be worth your while taking the opportunity while you are here to learn and complement any learning with practice.
kind regards

Ben

Ben wrote:Brizzy,

tiltbillings wrote: You seem to be criticizing what you do not know.

I tend to agree with Tilt's assessment and the comments of other respondents to this thread.
Personally, I think it would be worth your while taking the opportunity while you are here to learn and complement any learning with practice.
kind regards

Ben

Hi
If people have certain views, then they will always be defensive of those views. My view is that the suttas speak for themselves and any distortion of the sutta teachings, should be contested. Obviously I am defensive of that view as other people may be defensive of the Commentaries and the Visuddhimagga, from which current techniques originate. My point is that the suttas are not opaque and I cannot understand why truth seekers ( which is hopefully what we all are ), should feel so strongly that they need to look outside of those teachings. The final authority must always be the suttas/vinaya and when other teachings are put forward as being Buddha Dhamma, then it is against the suttas/vinaya, that they must be measured.
Be Happy

BTW I have practiced both methods, and I agree that certain benefits can be gained. My point is that they are not strictly what the Buddha taught and advised people to do, therefore the results gained may be less than following actual sutta advice.

Brizzy wrote: My view is that the suttas speak for themselves and any distortion of the sutta teachings, should be contested.

There is nothing in the Mahasi Sayadaw teachings that runs counter to the suttas.

tiltbillings wrote:

Brizzy wrote: My view is that the suttas speak for themselves and any distortion of the sutta teachings, should be contested.

There is nothing in the Mahasi Sayadaw teachings that runs counter to the suttas.

Is there evidence of Mahasi Sayadaw teachings in the suttas? Where exactly is the technique of walking super slow taught or "noting"?

Brizzy wrote:Where exactly is the technique of walking super slow taught or "noting"?

So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?