Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
pulga
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:
How does this support this: " However, there is no sutta which says that once-returner/stream-winner can reach even 1st jhana.?
I deleted the reply almost immediately upon posting it. While I don't believe 1st jhana is necessary in order to attain stream-entry that doesn't preclude a stream-winner's ability to attain such a state.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
How does this support this: " However, there is no sutta which says that once-returner/stream-winner can reach even 1st jhana.?
I deleted the reply almost immediately upon posting it. While I don't believe 1st jhana is necessary in order to attain stream-entry that doesn't preclude a stream-winner's ability to attain such a state.
Or a non-ariya from attaining jhana, unless we are working for radically differing definitions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

boris
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by boris »

Excursions into the Thought-World of the Pāli Discourses by Ven. Anālayo, p. 288-289:
With the final of the eight deliverances, the sense of true liberation from a Buddhist perspective comes to the fore, as the cessation of perception and feeling would require the development of insight up to the level of non-return or arahant-hood (AN III 194 and Vism 702)
If this is so, attainment of cessation of perception and feeling is useless and not helpful in attaining higher distinction in understanding since only one who has it, can attain it. But why not to think that attainment of cessation and perception and feeling provide bhikkhu with such knowledge, that makes him at least non-returner?
“I considered: ‘This Dhamma that I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, takes delight in attachment, rejoices in attachment. It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all determinations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stilling of all determinations can be done by insight; cessation of perception and feeling offer more "forceful" way of doing it.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila

SarathW
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand:
- A person follow the Noble Eight Fold Path, before he become a Sotapanna
- it is not, a person become Sotapanna first and follow the Noble Eight Fold Path later.
- Considering the fact that Samma Samadhi ( right concentration) is a limb of Noble Eight Fold Path, I would say a person need at least some basic concentration before he become a Sotapanna
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pulga
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:Or a non-ariya from attaining jhana, unless we are working for radically differing definitions.
I agree: the Ariyapariyesanāsutta (MN 26) comes to mind.

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Zom
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by Zom »

It is unclear what it is that you mean to be saying here in the underlined sentence.
What I mean is that even if 1st jhana is not reached by 2 lower ariyas, no need to think about their possible nirodha-samapatti attainment. So, yes, only non-returners and arahants can have it.

pulga
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by pulga »

boris wrote:If this is so, attainment of cessation of perception and feeling is useless and not helpful in attaining higher distinction in understanding since only one who has it, can attain it. But why not to think that attainment of cessation and perception and feeling provide bhikkhu with such knowledge, that makes him at least non-returner?
In the Sopādisesasutta (AN 9.12) the perfection of concentration and the concomitant overcoming of the two lower fetters of sensuous lust (kāma-rāga) and aversion (vyāpāda) are what distinguishes the anāgāmī from the sotāpanna/sakadāgāmī. Both are affective defilements. Need we associate their eradication with a deepening of understanding, with a further insight? Isn't the noble right view of the eightfold path sufficient for one to see nibbāna, i.e. to comprehend what it is without actually experiencing it? (Cf. the simile of the deep well with its visible glimmer of water.) There is of course the higher fetter of avijjā that falls away upon experiencing nibbāna, "touching" it, but might this only be associated with the right knowledge (sammañaṇa)of the arahat of being liberated? Is this particular use of avijjā -- i.e. as one of the ten fetters -- further elaborated on elsewhere in the Suttas?


Idampi kho ṭhānaṃ duddasaṃ yadidaṃ—sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all determinations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.

Here someone has translated ṭhāna as truth, but I think it is better translated as "state". And the passage only conveys the difficulty of seeing (duddasa) such a state, not of attaining it. It is one thing to see nibbāna, i.e. to comprehend it, another to attain it: asmimāna is affective in everyone but the arahat, but for the lesser ariyapuggalā such a conceit goes counter to reasoning and they have a clear understanding why that is so due to the inevitability of dependent arising.

boris
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by boris »

pulga wrote: And the passage only conveys the difficulty of seeing (duddasa) such a state, not of attaining it. It is one thing to see nibbāna, i.e. to comprehend it, another to attain it: asmimāna is affective in everyone but the arahat, but for the lesser ariyapuggalā such a conceit goes counter to reasoning and they have a clear understanding why that is so due to the inevitability of dependent arising.
Fine, but I use that passage in order to remind that cessation of perception and feeling in fact do this job, all determinations on which consciousness of puthujjana depends are gone in this attainment. It seems to suggest, that the very attainment makes a bhikkhu non-returner or arahat (although Ven Udayin has believed wrongly that after such attainment one has to be an arahat) then that this attainment is so subtle, that however strongly he tries, once returner cannot get it. But if you see differently, I have no arguments, I only offer here alternative interpretation of which I myself, am not sure whether it is true, since it is not matter of my direct knowledge, neither Suttas make it explicit.

Also, many depends on our understanding what cessation of perception and feeling really is. They say that it is not nibbana. But according to my understanding, this attainment offers direct "touch" of asankhata element, or in other words, "experience" or "state", or whatever word you like to use, between entering and emergence from this attainment, is the same as "experience" ... of extinction-element without residue.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by tiltbillings »

Zom wrote:
It is unclear what it is that you mean to be saying here in the underlined sentence.
What I mean is that even if 1st jhana is not reached by 2 lower ariyas, no need to think about their possible nirodha-samapatti attainment. So, yes, only non-returners and arahants can have it [nirodha-samapatti].
Thanks for the clarification.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

dhammarelax
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by dhammarelax »

Hi, this short audio (The experience of Nibbana - How it happens) seems interesting for this discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muIs991 ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by tiltbillings »

dhammarelax wrote:Hi, this short audio (The experience of Nibbana - How it happens) seems interesting for this discussion:



Smile all the time
dhammarelax
At 8:33 - 8:42 we hear that one should not add or subtract anything from the practice of "the original teachings of the Buddha"; however, Vimalaramsi's 6Rs is his particular interpretation of the Buddha's teachings and as such are not without their problems, as has been shown in various threads on this forum, as being presented as the Buddha's original teachings that do not add or subtract anything from the original teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Is the Theravada Tradition wrong?

Post by badscooter »

tiltbillings wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:Hi, this short audio (The experience of Nibbana - How it happens) seems interesting for this discussion:



Smile all the time
dhammarelax
At 8:33 - 8:42 we hear that one should not add or subtract anything from the practice of "the original teachings of the Buddha"; however, Vimalaramsi's 6Rs is his particular interpretation of the Buddha's teachings and as such are not without their problems, as has been shown in various threads on this forum, as being presented as the Buddha's original teachings that do not add or subtract anything from the original teachings.
:goodpost:
According to vimalaramsi, the way I see it, the only commentary allowed is his own.
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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