Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cooran
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Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by cooran »

I have to admit that I am surprised, even a little shocked, at this article by Jack Kornfield:

Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice
http://www.jackkornfield.com/psychedeli ... -practice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Aloka
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Aloka »

Hi Chris,

Can I ask if you've ever taken psychedelics yourself ? (Just curious)

Kind regards,

Aloka
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cooran
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by cooran »

Hi Aloka,

No, I never have.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by chownah »

cooran,
Then I guess that you really have no way of knowing what it is he is talking about and no way to judge the truth or value of what he is saying. To get a hint of what it is all about there are webpages describing how people react to psychedelic drugs when taken in a protected setting...I'm talking about pretty much ordinary people, not habitual drug users. Seems like there is a thread here somewhere which talks about this issue and gives a link to a site which has the stuff I just mentioned I think.
chownah
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Anagarika »

cooran wrote:I have to admit that I am surprised, even a little shocked, at this article by Jack Kornfield:

Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice
http://www.jackkornfield.com/psychedeli ... -practice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
Jack Kornfield, you likely already know, was also trained as a clinical psychologist. There has been recently some scholarship on the use of certain compounds, like MDMA, in conjunction with meditation and therapy, to help people with PTSD and other clinical disorders. It's my sense that some of the pathways and doorways that we seek to open through samadhi can also be assisted or opened through the use of MDMA and other drugs under clinical supervision.

Despite Dr. Kornfield having been trained under Ajahn Chah, he certainly has ventured into many areas of interest outside of the Dhamma itself in his approach to teaching Buddhism. This short article cannot hope to embrace all of the potential benefits, and harms, of the use of psychotropics. It's an area worthy of clinical study, but in my view, it is not within the circle of the Buddha's teachings. Psychotropics, I hope, will never amount to a shortcut for people seeking samadhi. It lies outside of it, but like a Venn diagram, there may be some interesting crossover relations between meditation's benefits and psychotropics.
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Spiny Norman »

cooran wrote:I have to admit that I am surprised, even a little shocked, at this article by Jack Kornfield:
I dabbled with mushrooms a long time ago, it was fascinating to experience the possibilities in altered states of consciousness. Though jhana is more natural! ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by dhammacoustic »

http://deoxy.org/h_dmth.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A friend of mine went to Peru, partook in one of those ayahuasca-consuming rituals in a sweat lodge. He used to be an ordinary person as far as I remember, now he's a commited Pagan :)
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Spiny Norman »

silver surfer wrote: A friend of mine went to Peru, partook in one of those ayahuasca-consuming rituals in a sweat lodge. He used to be an ordinary person as far as I remember, now he's a commited Pagan :)
:o

:jumping:

Funnily enough I dabbled a bit in paganism myself.... :D
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by DNS »

chownah wrote:cooran,
Then I guess that you really have no way of knowing what it is he is talking about and no way to judge the truth or value of what he is saying. To get a hint of what it is all about there are webpages describing how people react to psychedelic drugs when taken in a protected setting...I'm talking about pretty much ordinary people, not habitual drug users. Seems like there is a thread here somewhere which talks about this issue and gives a link to a site which has the stuff I just mentioned I think.
chownah
You don't have to take those things to know what they do. One can get an education, read reports, read studies and see the effects that way. One doesn't need to take poison to know what poison does.

In any event, the Buddha's teachings include:

Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

That is just an excerpt, but from that excerpt it appears Jack Kornfield is going a little away from the Dhamma and mixing some New Age or just trying to appeal more to a wider group of potential spiritual seekers for whatever reasons (perhaps skillful means for propagation).
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by SarathW »

:goodpost: David
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Nicolas »

I would tend to agree with what Jack Kornfield wrote in that article.

Experimenting with psychedelics is what got me out of the atheist physicalist materialist paradigm, shifting at first towards monistic idealism and an opening up to spirituality, and eventually, the Dhamma.
In certain amounts and settings they can induce what some call "ego death" and can lead to certain mystical and non-dual states. Without the experiences I had, I would never have formed the desire to embark on a spiritual path, and I would have much more difficulty in accepting anatta.
Some of these experiences have also led me to be open to the idea of devas and other normally-invisible beings.
It also definitely boosted my compassion for all beings, as it lowered the common denominator (identifying with "consciousness" rather than "being human" allows to understand why the difference between an ant and me is not fundamental, although this self-identification is still delusion), but also because of the unitive boundary-breaking experiences that they can provide.
A certain number of experiences I had also specifically pointed towards elements of the Dhamma: rebirth and the end of rebirth as the goal, anatta, mindfulness, meditation, purification of mind.
I think there definitely is value to psychedelics, but there is also a huge potential for delusion (which I have witnessed in myself and others), and even madness for some. I think they can be good as a potential eye-opener for whoever is adequately predisposed, but for someone already on the Buddhist path, they may be of little or no interest and are probably a hindrance (cf. 5th precept), and for someone without certain predispositions, they can be flat-out negative, as they are powerful tools that can be potentially dangerous.

I'm grateful they were on my path and led me to Buddhism, I see them as a raft that I turned away from to join the ultimate raft of Dhamma.

Here's a quote from Alan Watts:
Alan Watts wrote:Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen.
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by cooran »

David N. Snyder wrote:
chownah wrote:cooran,
Then I guess that you really have no way of knowing what it is he is talking about and no way to judge the truth or value of what he is saying. To get a hint of what it is all about there are webpages describing how people react to psychedelic drugs when taken in a protected setting...I'm talking about pretty much ordinary people, not habitual drug users. Seems like there is a thread here somewhere which talks about this issue and gives a link to a site which has the stuff I just mentioned I think.
chownah
You don't have to take those things to know what they do. One can get an education, read reports, read studies and see the effects that way. One doesn't need to take poison to know what poison does.

In any event, the Buddha's teachings include:

Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

That is just an excerpt, but from that excerpt it appears Jack Kornfield is going a little away from the Dhamma and mixing some New Age or just trying to appeal more to a wider group of potential spiritual seekers for whatever reasons (perhaps skillful means for propagation).
Thanks, David - :anjali:

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by Mkoll »

David N. Snyder wrote:That is just an excerpt, but from that excerpt it appears Jack Kornfield is going a little away from the Dhamma and mixing some New Age or just trying to appeal more to a wider group of potential spiritual seekers for whatever reasons (perhaps skillful means for propagation).
Yes, it does. With all due respect for Mr. Kornfield, this seems to be the path he has chosen as a teacher based upon what I've read and seen of him recently.
Nicolas wrote:Experimenting with psychedelics is what got me out of the atheist physicalist materialist paradigm, shifting at first towards monistic idealism and an opening up to spirituality, and eventually, the Dhamma.
In certain amounts and settings they can induce what some call "ego death" and can lead to certain mystical and non-dual states. Without the experiences I had, I would never have formed the desire to embark on a spiritual path, and I would have much more difficulty in accepting anatta.
:soap:
I can personally relate to some of what you've written here as similar thoughts have occurred to me. But as a counterpoint, they come with the benefit of hindsight and it is seems uncertain to say that one definitely wouldn't have embarked on a spiritual path without them.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by chownah »

David N. Snyder wrote: You don't have to take those things to know what they do.
David N. Snyder,
You are absolutely wrong. It is difficult to say strongly enough that you are absolutely wrong. There is no way that an intellectual understanding of the psychedelic experience can inform you of what they do....unless perhaps if you were enlightened. What you are saying is equivalent to an uninformed worldling with no meditative experience when speaking of jhana saying, "I know what sitting on a pillow does....it is pointless."
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Re: Jack Kornfield "Psychedelics and Spiritual Practice"

Post by DNS »

anecdotal fallacy and false analogy

Perhaps you have never heard of deductive reasoning.
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