Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by Crazy cloud »

SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:38 am Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?
- Where it is said?
- When will be the peak?
- What is the possible fate of other religions?
- Will there be a new religions grow bigger than all major religions?

:thinking:

Some info:

http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/wo ... ions-tree/


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 297&hilit=
Who cares if an ism disappears, it will reappear as usual. And dhamma will not disappear, so I don't see the problem. Besides that, I consider being too attached to the written teachings, a form of clinging to rites and rituals.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
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SarathW
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by SarathW »

Dorian wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:20 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:43 amSotapanna is more than enough for me. :D
The thing I can't understand is how much effort should be put in order to become sotapanna.
The way I understand it now is if you practice Satipathana by the method of walking meditation you will gain quick results.
It is important to know what exactly is walking meditation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I’m not sure it will last another 100 years given the secular encroachment into the Dhamma.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:53 amI’m not sure it will last another 100 years given the secular encroachment into the Dhamma.
Secular Buddhism is only a small cult of unlearned Western intellectuals. As for mainstream Buddhism, it hibernated real Buddhism centuries ago.

As for radical conservative orthodox Buddhists, such as Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, they actually restored the true Dhamma. That is why the many Western monasteries of Ajahn Chah, are the most significant sign of genuine Dhamma; and they actually have a connection with the Ajahn Chah-Pannananda-Buddhadasa organisation.

You seem to not understand that only real Buddhist teachings result in real liberated monks who can maintain the real Dhamma. Without monks such as Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, we would not be discussing anatta, sunnata, etc.

:candle:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stephen18
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by Stephen18 »

DNS wrote: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:49 am
In his commentary, Buddhaghosa eventually increases the life of the sāsana to 5,000 years. During the first 1,000 years, he says, there will be arahants with the four analytical knowledges. The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anāgāmin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadāgāmin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotāpanna (stream enterers). Adding these figures together, we find that the paṭivedha (realization or penetration of the Dhamma) will last for 5,000 years.
Not that I fully accept the Commentary version, but just to put it in the Gregorian calendar format:

483 BCE to 517 CE = Arahants possible with the four analytical knowledges
517 CE to 1517 = Arahants possible with bare insight
1517 to 2517 = Only up to anagamis possible, no arahants (our current age)
2517 to 3517 = Only up to sakadagamis possible
3517 to 4517 = Only up to sotapannas possible

One advantage there would be if all Buddhists accepted this Commentary version of the future; there could be no claims to arahantship in our current age and we could immediately and summarily dismiss any claims without further review. :tongue:
How about the fact that Stream-enterers are guaranteed Arahantship later on?
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by DNS »

Stephen18 wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:34 am How about the fact that Stream-enterers are guaranteed Arahantship later on?
That is correct, that would be an issue, if the 7 future lives are always as human. However, it is likely some future lives are in deva realms, some of which last in the millions of years (according to buddhist cosmology).
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:40 am
Stephen18 wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:34 am How about the fact that Stream-enterers are guaranteed Arahantship later on?
That is correct, that would be an issue, if the 7 future lives are always as human. However, it is likely some future lives are in deva realms, some of which last in the millions of years (according to buddhist cosmology).
Agree.
Ven. Dhammapada said that there is no account of Sotapann who had been reborn as a human in Sutta.
The only account we have seen in recent history is that Ven. Waharaka Abayaratnalankara was a Sotapanna in a previous life!
However, I have to agree with Ven. Dhammanando.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by Stephen18 »

I just don't think heaven and hell last that long -- it doesn't make any sense to me. We should reason with the texts. I think there are many insertions even in Theravāda texts.
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by lavantien »

Dorian wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:20 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:43 amSotapanna is more than enough for me. :D
The thing I can't understand is how much effort should be put in order to become sotapanna.
Have you already read the whole Sutta Pitaka (DN, MN, SN, AN, KN) and then the Vinaya - to gain Right View and overall understanding of the Buddha's teaching (many people think that this will take to much time and cannot be accomplish for a lay person, but do not be afraid if you committed to the practice, mine takes about 3 months to read the 4 main Nikayas, and another 4 months for the KN and Vinaya)? In your case, particularly the SN 55 which specifically deals with the Sotapatti attainment.

Why reading the whole Pitaka? I see many people only read a couple of suttas that they like or are famous, then rushing to a conclusion, missing a bigger picture and misrepresent the Buddha's words, lead to not have sufficient resource to gain faith and confidence for the Buddha and his teaching. Or they think there is no detail instructions in the suttas. The apparent example is the user that commented right above me :thinking:

The Sutta Pitaka is a coherent collection, many of them are interconnected and support each other, for example, the Satipatthana sutta MN 10 has a whole SN 47 that goes into details.

After reading and pondering the suttas, do you have enough effort to put it into practice, selectively, gradually - generosity, ethical conducts, senses restraint, contentment, wakefulness, mindfulness & awareness, meditation, ...?

Speaking of effort:
https://suttacentral.net/an4.13 wrote: “Mendicants, there are these four right efforts. What four?

A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities arise.

They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are fulfilled by development.

These are the four right efforts.

By rightly striving, they’ve crushed Māra’s sovereignty;
unattached, they’ve gone beyond the danger of birth and death.
Contented and unstirred, they’ve vanquished Māra and his mount;
now they’ve gone beyond all Namuci’s forces, they’re happy.”
My final advice is that you may still have many defilements, but you would want aspiring to the standard, not lowering the bar, or cherry picking the words to justify your defilements - a common mistake for "modern Buddhist".
https://suttacentral.net/an4.159 wrote: “Sister, this body is produced by food. Relying on food, you should give up food.
This body is produced by craving. Relying on craving, you should give up craving.
This body is produced by conceit. Relying on conceit, you should give up conceit.
This body is produced by sex. The Buddha spoke of breaking off everything to do with sex."
https://suttacentral.net/mn22 wrote: “Is it really true, Ariṭṭha, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them’?”

“Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them.”

“Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that obstructive acts are obstructive, and that they really do obstruct the one who performs them? I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by markandeya »

DNS wrote: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:10 am
SarathW wrote: - What is the possible fate of other religions?
- Will there be a new religions grow bigger than all major religions?
In my opinion, there will probably be more syncretism with the mixing of various religions, religious beliefs, maybe some forming into large groupings. And there will be a huge increase in atheist/non-religious population group. And then of the traditional religions, most likely Islam and Christianity holding the largest numbers simply because they are the most active at proselytizing and discouraging conversion out of the faith. The Dhamma will gradually disappear or be so unrecognizable from syncretism and absorption with other beliefs.

From a Buddhist pov, all of this is to be expected in the cycle and evolution of times. Then the next Buddha will arise, Metteyya (Maitreya).
Christianity is on the decline at a fairly rapid pace, most the missionary works now are converting poor people either by bribes in India and charity works in sub saharan Africa, all in all a shady religion, lets face it its a failed religion. Islam is mostly increasing due to population increase. Ancient persia had a healthy relationship with Asia but not Europe and most the rallying of forces is based on war times, we cant ignore history from Ghengis Khan to the present day, but true history is hard to find because the war stretches to the pen, that pen or word propaganda is alive and healthy scheming to turn India into the battle of Kuruskshetra, shameful and ignorant materialists.

In Indonesia Islam synthesised very nicely with Buddha dharma practices and other sanatana dharma influences along with native traditions, as it did in India before the war mongers created isms and schisms and they claim to know what buddhism is and other dharma traditions, how ironic.

Buddha sassana lasting 5 thousand years, when exactly was the start point of buddhism, 18th century colonial scheming.

Atheism and ask many today will not deny spirituality, an atheist can practice mindfulness and observation techniques and energetic levels of consciousness, its not about belief , although theism and atheism has little to do with dharma traditions, sassana does not belong to linear times, so its an odd concept and just false inclusion totally misrepresented.

Nobody yet has learned to work out cosmic time, because it needs a supramental ability of near like buddha or total buddha rupadhatu to see how fast what we would call the mind travels, but then what is mind, to understand cosmic timelines at least one needs to work out what is mind, and this cant be done empirically, so opinions and speculations are invalid.
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Re: Arahants with "bare insight" - Arahants without jhanas

Post by Germann »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:57 pm
Germann wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:58 am
culaavuso wrote: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:38 am
The Theravada school cannot satisfy 37 principles, since last Arahants (before the 15th century ad) were already Arahants with "bare insight" - Arahants without jhanas. Of the 37 principles, samadhi (jhanas) falls out.
What about Ajman bua?
What is written in the Commentary cannot be changed.
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by cappuccino »

Stephen18 wrote: I just don't think heaven and hell last that long -- it doesn't make any sense to me.
time is relative
The Blessed One wrote:Brahma, this is a short lifespan of yours. You think it's long …
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by Aloka »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:42 am
Secular Buddhism is only a small cult of unlearned Western intellectuals. As for mainstream Buddhism, it hibernated real Buddhism centuries ago.

As for radical conservative orthodox Buddhists, such as Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, they actually restored the true Dhamma. That is why the many Western monasteries of Ajahn Chah, are the most significant sign of genuine Dhamma; and they actually have a connection with the Ajahn Chah-Pannananda-Buddhadasa organisation.

You seem to not understand that only real Buddhist teachings result in real liberated monks who can maintain the real Dhamma. Without monks such as Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, we would not be discussing anatta, sunnata, etc.

:candle:

:candle: :goodpost: :candle:

.
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by confusedlayman »

markandeya wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:00 am
DNS wrote: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:10 am
SarathW wrote: - What is the possible fate of other religions?
- Will there be a new religions grow bigger than all major religions?
In my opinion, there will probably be more syncretism with the mixing of various religions, religious beliefs, maybe some forming into large groupings. And there will be a huge increase in atheist/non-religious population group. And then of the traditional religions, most likely Islam and Christianity holding the largest numbers simply because they are the most active at proselytizing and discouraging conversion out of the faith. The Dhamma will gradually disappear or be so unrecognizable from syncretism and absorption with other beliefs.

From a Buddhist pov, all of this is to be expected in the cycle and evolution of times. Then the next Buddha will arise, Metteyya (Maitreya).
Christianity is on the decline at a fairly rapid pace, most the missionary works now are converting poor people either by bribes in India and charity works in sub saharan Africa, all in all a shady religion, lets face it its a failed religion. Islam is mostly increasing due to population increase. Ancient persia had a healthy relationship with Asia but not Europe and most the rallying of forces is based on war times, we cant ignore history from Ghengis Khan to the present day, but true history is hard to find because the war stretches to the pen, that pen or word propaganda is alive and healthy scheming to turn India into the battle of Kuruskshetra, shameful and ignorant materialists.

In Indonesia Islam synthesised very nicely with Buddha dharma practices and other sanatana dharma influences along with native traditions, as it did in India before the war mongers created isms and schisms and they claim to know what buddhism is and other dharma traditions, how ironic.

Buddha sassana lasting 5 thousand years, when exactly was the start point of buddhism, 18th century colonial scheming.

Atheism and ask many today will not deny spirituality, an atheist can practice mindfulness and observation techniques and energetic levels of consciousness, its not about belief , although theism and atheism has little to do with dharma traditions, sassana does not belong to linear times, so its an odd concept and just false inclusion totally misrepresented.

Nobody yet has learned to work out cosmic time, because it needs a supramental ability of near like buddha or total buddha rupadhatu to see how fast what we would call the mind travels, but then what is mind, to understand cosmic timelines at least one needs to work out what is mind, and this cant be done empirically, so opinions and speculations are invalid.
with advancement of neuroscience and quantum physics, only buddhism will remain at the end. all other religion will decline and who ever used voilence to convert innocent people to false religion will be in hell for sure. they are in hell even now they show symptoms. im not angry on others im stating my view which is not based on personal expierewnce but mere pondering.
dont think
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Re: Will Buddhism survive for 5000 years?

Post by confusedlayman »

Stephen18 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:27 am I just don't think heaven and hell last that long -- it doesn't make any sense to me. We should reason with the texts. I think there are many insertions even in Theravāda texts.
earth time and moon time are different. mars time and mercury time different. pluto is different. time is man made based on sun distance and revolution of planets and rotation of earth. in buddhas time sunrise, sunset, sunrise means one day over. depending on full moon or half moon or rainy season the months are based. brahmins also have their own calender. i think since brahma world has many sun or somewhere in far galaxy their view of life span wont co incide with ours. for us one day is 1 minute for them or 1 nanosecond who knows. for them 1 million seconds is 1 minute instead of 60 seconds. hence time should not be though as way of physics but it should be thought in terms of exsistance experience. if u in deep samadhi, u will think many eons passed but when u wake it would be 5 min. or vice versa.
dont think
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