Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

There is a saying in the Ch'an Buddhist tradition...
Great doubt, great enlightenment; small doubt, small enlightenment
Do you think this applies to Theravada (or your tradition, if you happen to be of another tradition)?

What does this mean to you?

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by Cittasanto »

I suppose it is refering to not the Enlightenment, but the experiance of enlightenment in a theravada context it would be at the Sotapanna stage when this is applicaple more than the rest, so it may be if the doubt is great that the progress is faster once reaching that level? remembering there are four ways to progress
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genkaku
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by genkaku »

To me, it simply means that practice is endless and anything short of that endlessness falls short.

In my mind the saying is not meant as a criticism or even necessarily as an encouragement. Rather, it is a straightforward observation of fact...like saying, "the car is blue," when it is indeed blue.

Most of us have a stop-and-go practice -- taking breaks with one belief or another, one hope or another, one certainty or another. Sometimes it is a lifelong affection that develops at one particular pit stop or another. But life (or the Dharma, if you like) does not stop. Look around, if you disbelieve me.

Endless is how we began and endless is how we (don't) end. Doubt drives the car and enlightenment is the gas in its tank.

Just my take, obviously.
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pink_trike
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by pink_trike »

Imo, replacing "doubt" with "uncertainty" may be helpful in understanding this phrase. The degree that we are aware of the inherent uncertain (impermanent, dynamic, insubstantial, conditioned) nature of the entire phenomenal world is the degree that we experience clarity (cleared, emptied, light, spacious, aha!, the lightbulb in the head switches on). The more we are cleared of the cluttering, clouding, en-darken-ing, confining confusion of certainty, the more awake we are - the less we perceive ourselves as separate, solid, self. Awareness of the uncertainty of circumstances, practicing, and studying (the Path) is none other than awakening, integrating, en-lighten-ing, clear-ing, empty-ing (the Fruit). Great Uncertainty is Great Awakening.
Last edited by pink_trike on Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
rowyourboat
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by rowyourboat »

I agree with pink trike- otherwise if we were talking purely of doubt (vicikicca) it would not make sense -certainly not from a theravada perspective as doubt is gotten rid of at the sotapanna level.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Fede
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by Fede »

The deeper you fall, the higher your climb, but it's worth the effort.
But if you stroll it downhill, the sense of liberation and achievement is not going to be as great - or as life-changing.

Is how I see it.
Simply put.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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christopher:::
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by christopher::: »

Yeah, i too like the way pink trike put it. Doubting all we have been taught, by society. Doubting the pleasure seeking habits we've developed, samsaric thoughts, belief in self. That's like the egg cracking....

The lotus bud rising above the muck.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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pink_trike
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by pink_trike »

Yes, with no separation between muck and lotus.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by tiltbillings »

Here is a talk by Joseph Goldstein on the Five Hindrances:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1382/

He takes them in reverse order, starting with doubt, talking about the hindrances in terms of actual practice. The whole talk is well worth listening to.

A lengthier talk in the context of the Satipatthana Sutta:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/298/
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I understand this phrase in a not too dissimilar way to the Zen story about the professor and the tea cup.
A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

Source: http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/emptycup.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The more you are prepared to challenge your existing views and not cling to them... the more likely you are to discover the Dhamma in all its profundity.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

genkaku wrote:To me, it simply means that practice is endless and anything short of that endlessness falls short.

In my mind the saying is not meant as a criticism or even necessarily as an encouragement. Rather, it is a straightforward observation of fact...like saying, "the car is blue," when it is indeed blue.

Most of us have a stop-and-go practice -- taking breaks with one belief or another, one hope or another, one certainty or another. Sometimes it is a lifelong affection that develops at one particular pit stop or another. But life (or the Dharma, if you like) does not stop. Look around, if you disbelieve me.

Endless is how we began and endless is how we (don't) end. Doubt drives the car and enlightenment is the gas in its tank.

Just my take, obviously.
I like this!

:namaste:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

pink_trike wrote:Imo, replacing "doubt" with "uncertainty" may be helpful in understanding this phrase. The degree that we are aware of the inherent uncertain (impermanent, dynamic, insubstantial, conditioned) nature of the entire phenomenal world is the degree that we experience clarity (cleared, emptied, light, spacious, aha!, the lightbulb in the head switches on). The more we are cleared of the cluttering, clouding, en-darken-ing, confining confusion of certainty, the more awake we are - the less we perceive ourselves as separate, solid, self. Awareness of the uncertainty of circumstances, practicing, and studying (the Path) is none other than awakening, integrating, en-lighten-ing, clear-ing, empty-ing (the Fruit). Great Uncertainty is Great Awakening.
I like this too! :)

Here's my response. It seems like I have a slightly different take on this, but here it is anyhow...

This reads to me as a prompt to investigate and pursue the dharma with vigor. A sense of doubt, or I might say practicality is a good quality imho. I don't practice Cha'an, but speaking from the point of view of a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, pursing the path definitely takes committment and motivation. And taking the words of a teacher or sutra, and investigating and digesting on one's own is recommended. The specific reference to "small enlightenment" vs. "great enlightenment," makes me think of the idea that you see fruits of practice and study that are comprable to how much you put into them.

While I don't think it's necessarily helpful to reject everything out of hand before it's proven, nor is it good to accept any teacher or teaching that comes my way without investigation, there's some place in the middle that works for me. Thanks for this nice quote, it's a good reminder.

Best,
Drolma

:namaste:
kannada
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by kannada »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There is a saying in the Ch'an Buddhist tradition...
Great doubt, great enlightenment; small doubt, small enlightenment
Do you think this applies to Theravada (or your tradition, if you happen to be of another tradition)?

What does this mean to you?

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
No Doubt - no enlightenment ~ in accord with my tradition (acintya)

Regards

k
Just a view - nothing more...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by tiltbillings »

Just to add a bit of emphasis, it would be well worth the few minutes it would take to listen to the doubt section (the opening) of this talk (if not the whole talk). Goldstein speaks not as a theoretician, but as a solid practitioner deeply grounded in the Dhamma teachings, making sometime dry formulaic doctrinal statements come alive as actual ways doing and understanding practice.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1382/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: Great doubt, great enlightenment...

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:Just to add a bit of emphasis, it would be well worth the few minutes it would take to listen to the doubt section (the opening) of this talk (if not the whole talk). Goldstein speaks not as a theoretician, but as a solid practitioner deeply grounded in the Dhamma teachings, making sometime dry formulaic doctrinal statements come alive as actual ways doing and understanding practice.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1382/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Tilt. I've downloaded and will add to my iPod...

:namaste:
Ngawang Drolma wrote: I don't practice Cha'an, but speaking from the point of view of a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism, pursing the path definitely takes committment and motivation. And taking the words of a teacher or sutra, and investigating and digesting on one's own is recommended. The specific reference to "small enlightenment" vs. "great enlightenment," makes me think of the idea that you see fruits of practice and study that are comprable to how much you put into them.
Great doubt plus great effort, a powerful combination. Add great compassion and great joy, one may actually start flying..

:tongue:
retrofuturist wrote: I understand this phrase in a not too dissimilar way to the Zen story about the professor and the tea cup.

:::::

The more you are prepared to challenge your existing views and not cling to them... the more likely you are to discover the Dhamma in all its profundity.
This relates also to the idea of shoshin, in Japanese and Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind which Shunryu Suzuki talked about extensively...
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind (Shunryu Suzuki)

excerpt:

"In Japan we have the phrase shoshin, which means "beginner's mind." The goal of practice is always to keep our beginner's mind. Suppose you recite the Prajna Paramita Sutra only once. It might be a very good recitation. But what would happen to you if you recited it twice, three times, four times, or more? You might easily lose your original attitude towards it. The same thing will happen in your other Zen practices. For a while you will keep your beginner's mind, but if you continue to practice one, two, three years or more, although you may improve some, you are liable to lose the limitless meaning of original mind.

For Zen students the most important thing is not to be dualistic. Our "original mind" includes everything within itself. It is always rich and sufficient within itself. You should not lose your self‑sufficient state of mind. This does not mean a closed mind, but actually an empty mind and a ready mind. If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few...

In the beginner's mind there is no thought, "I have attained something." All self‑centered thoughts limit our vast mind. When we have no thought of achievement, no thought of self, we are true beginners. Then we can really learn something. The beginner's mind is the mind of compassion. When our mind is compassionate, it is boundless. Dogen‑zenji, the founder of our school, always emphasized how important it is to resume our boundless original mind. Then we are always true to ourselves, in sympathy with all beings, and can actually practice..."
:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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