How low can you go?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vesak2014
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How low can you go?

Post by vesak2014 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:35 pm

The question is meant to talk about nibbana. I believe some people can get the meaning from the question itself. It is inviting people to talk about nibbana using your own words instead of merely using the stock phrases in the suttas.

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Mkoll
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:00 pm

I'm in limbo about answering your question. The bar has already sunk too low.

:juggling:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:43 pm

You're ahead of me, Mkoll... I have no idea exactly what the OP is asking....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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m0rl0ck
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:57 pm

Ok. Ill take a shot:

Reality.

Just as it is free of delusion.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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acinteyyo
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by acinteyyo » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:28 pm

Does anybody really believe that talking about nibbana in their own words is a good idea?
I mean if someone didn't get the meaning of nibbana through the terms used in the suttas, implied that those terms alone are enough to understand what nibbana means in the first place, knowing that an enlightened being has chosen those specific terms probably for a reason, why would anybody think his or her own terms to describe nibbana are in any way appropriate to describe a state they don't have a clue about?
What will be described most probably is nothing else but ones own imaginations, ones own views and conceptions about nibbana.

Please accept my apologies interrupting this topic this way.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

vesak2014
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by vesak2014 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:53 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Ok. Ill take a shot:

Reality.

Just as it is free of delusion.
Well, aren't they too broad and abstract? Merely rhetorics?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:19 pm

Passion is hot, dispassion is cool, nibbāna is totally cooled, like absolute zero.
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vesak2014
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by vesak2014 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:40 pm

acinteyyo wrote:Does anybody really believe that talking about nibbana in their own words is a good idea?
I mean if someone didn't get the meaning of nibbana through the terms used in the suttas, implied that those terms alone are enough to understand what nibbana means in the first place, knowing that an enlightened being has chosen those specific terms probably for a reason, why would anybody think his or her own terms to describe nibbana are in any way appropriate to describe a state they don't have a clue about?
What will be described most probably is nothing else but ones own imaginations, ones own views and conceptions about nibbana.
This is not about good or bad idea but trying to be honest at least to yourself whether or not you have a clue. I didn't mean to totally exclude the words used in the suttas. Repeating the stock phrases from the suttas without further explanation is useless. That's what I mean by using your own words. And it is pathetic some people think that it will require to explain the entire buddhist path, which sounds rather like a taboo.

Conception about nibbana is required, otherwise how would you pave the way for it.
Take an illustration using an asia map to go from thailand to vietnam by road trip. If you don't have any idea of what vietnam is, you may think you have arrived while you are still in cambodia, or you have taken wrong direction and arrive in laos. So conception about the destination is important. And when you have that conception it must have solid basis from the suttas thus it won't be your own imagination.
Please accept my apologies interrupting this topic this way.
Actually you don't need to apologize as you have done nothing wrong.

:anjali:

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m0rl0ck
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by m0rl0ck » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:46 am

vesak2014 wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:Ok. Ill take a shot:

Reality.

Just as it is free of delusion.
Well, aren't they too broad and abstract? Merely rhetorics?
Yeah they are. No better than any other verbal description i guess.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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tiltbillings
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:57 am

vesak2014 wrote:The question is meant to talk about nibbana. I believe some people can get the meaning from the question itself. It is inviting people to talk about nibbana using your own words instead of merely using the stock phrases in the suttas.
You first. Set the pace, set the bar, set the example. Rather than expecting others to do the work here, show us, by example, what it is that you want.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

vesak2014
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by vesak2014 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:12 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Passion is hot, dispassion is cool, nibbāna is totally cooled, like absolute zero.
Nice, inspiring mapping of the "low" metaphor to temperature. What is got cooled to absolute zero?

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Viscid
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by Viscid » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Not sure how much I like using 'low,' in reference to nibbana.. If a thing is 'low' then there are other things 'higher' than it, and is nibbana not described as the highest bliss? It also suggests a depth, as if you're referring merely to a deep meditative state rather than a permanent attainment of liberation.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:54 pm

vesak2014 wrote:What is got cooled to absolute zero?
The three fires of greed, hatred, and delusion.

The Fire Sermon
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tiltbillings
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:33 pm

Viscid wrote:Not sure how much I like using 'low,' in reference to nibbana.. If a thing is 'low' then there are other things 'higher' than it, and is nibbana not described as the highest bliss? It also suggests a depth, as if you're referring merely to a deep meditative state rather than a permanent attainment of liberation.
Our OP is trying to be clever, seemingly using low, as in low temperature, which Ven Pesala caught. Our OP is punning on words such nibbuti/nibbuta, cooling/cooled, which of course refers to nibbana the extinguishment of burning: "The eye is burning, forms are burning, . . . Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs."

It is the sort of thing of which one can get a taste in meditation. For example, sitting in meditation lust arises. Rather than trying to drive it out with contemplations of body-parts or decaying bodies or such, one simply pays attention to it: Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust. Sitting with lust is not necessary comfortable; there is a burning, a feverish wanting quality about it.

Figuratively speaking being mindful of it is like taking a step back from the lust, putting space around it, allowing it to be, allowing it to burn, being aware of, without comment on, the concatenate feverish feelings/sensations that arise and fall. What is most interesting, in this context of nibbuti, is being aware of the moment when the fuel for this lust has been exhausted, going, in an instant, from burning, feverishness to coolness with a clear concentrated, mindful, calm mind. That I would imagine is what nibbana would be, but only more unimaginably profound.

Now, is this what our OP is driving at? Damdifino.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Aloka
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Re: How low can you go?

Post by Aloka » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:02 pm

tiltbillings wrote: What is most interesting, in this context of nibbuti, is being aware of the moment when the fuel for this lust has been exhausted, going, in an instant, from burning, feverishness to coolness with a clear concentrated, mindful, calm mind. That I would imagine is what nibbana would be, but only more unimaginably profound.
Yes. I imagine that the awakened mind would be still, clear, spacious, untroubled by emotional reactions...and much more.



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