What is No-Self?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:26 pm

LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
VinceField
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 2:03 am

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by VinceField » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
VinceField wrote: I initially left out the details to keep it simple and avoid debate of the experiences that gave birth to my view.
Drugs.
LOL no sir, just a lot of practice, hard work and dedication to exploring the out of body state and altered states of consciousness.

I wouldn't give as much credibility to these experiences if they were drug induced, although I do believe that psychedelics are a doorway to legitimate alternate/spiritual dimensions and mystical experiences.
Last edited by VinceField on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by LXNDR » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:27 pm

No_Mind wrote:
LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?
transient

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:34 pm

LXNDR wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
LXNDR wrote:in my opinion the 'self' exists in samsara, once nibbana sets in, the self disappears
Do you mean a transient self exists in samsara or a permanent self exists in samsara?
transient
But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks. For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.

If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".

It is not like having a lobotomy is it?

Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?

This is not a joke but a serious question.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6499
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by Mkoll » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:41 pm

LXNDR wrote:
Mkoll wrote:If just reading about someone's mystical experience makes you want to throw out the Dhamma, then you didn't have much faith in it to begin with.
saying that i had or have my doubts and/or second thoughts would be more accurate

now what i wrote in that post actually clearly shows that in my opinion her experience does confirm the Dhamma, so why would i throw out the Dhamma if her mystical or rather existential experience does confirm it? it's like discarding a fact independently confirmed by several people
so it makes me rather want to embrace it
I briefly skimmed the link that you gave. She speaks of the "Christian experience, with the help of God, both inwardly as stillness, and outwardly as the Eucharist, can lead to the self's union with God." I don't understand how you could construe this as confirming the Dhamma.
LXNDR wrote:how did you come to this peculiarly opposite conclusion? :thinking:
That's the impression I got from what you wrote earlier:
LXNDR wrote:against the argument 'why do we need this, we already have buddhavacana?' it can be said that Roberts unlike the suttas actually describes and reflects on the no-self experience and mechanism of being when no self exists
~~~

I'm curious: Did you actually read her book?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:47 pm

No_Mind wrote: But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks.
I think the arahant performs daily tasks without relying on any idea of self.
No_Mind wrote: For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.
It doesn't seem that way for me. When I have to pee, then I find appropriate place to do it... I don't waste time thinking about self. I'm not even a stream-entrant.
No_Mind wrote: If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
Why would he pee where he is standing? That is inappropriate behavior...
No_Mind wrote: It is not like having a lobotomy is it?
I think the trouble is that you're trying to view self as something essential, when it is just a label.
No_Mind wrote: Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?
He would not become annoyed... it is just someone that slapped him, for whatever reason.
No_Mind wrote: This is not a joke but a serious question.
Ok.

:anjali:

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:11 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
No_Mind wrote: For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.
It doesn't seem that way for me. When I have to pee, then I find appropriate place to do it... I don't waste time thinking about self. I'm not even a stream-entrant.
No_Mind wrote: If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".
Why would he pee where he is standing? That is inappropriate behavior...
You don't waste time thinking about it and find an appropriate place. That is because you have a transient self in control - a master up in your noggin flicking switches. With self abolished an arahant does not have a master up there.

Inappropriate behavior is clinging to a view. Nothing is biologically wrong with peeing where you are standing. Only man has set up special places to pee in. With no view to cling to why will an arahant find a restroom?

I shudder to ask these questions but they are valid questions all the same. My questions may seem odd and insulting but given what we know of Nirvana they are fully valid questions.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by beeblebrox » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:18 pm

No_Mind wrote: You don't waste time thinking about it and find an appropriate place. That is because you have a transient self in control - a master up in your noggin flicking switches. With self abolished an arahant does not have a master up there.
Hi No_Mind,

I wish I have the time to participate in a deeper way with this thread, but I actually don't... so please take this as my last post.

There is not a "master" anywhere that controls the behavior... it's only kamma and the fruits.
No_Mind wrote: Inappropriate behavior is clinging to a view. Nothing is biologically wrong with peeing where you are standing. Only man has set up special places to pee in. With no view to cling to why will an arahant find a restroom?
An arahant would not do it because he knows that it would cause more trouble than it's worth. (Not just with others, but also for himself, due to the mess that he would make on the robes.) That is not due to self.

:anjali:

LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by LXNDR » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:39 pm

Mkoll wrote:I briefly skimmed the link that you gave.
She speaks of the "Christian experience, with the help of God, both inwardly as stillness, and outwardly as the Eucharist, can lead to the self's union with God.
I don't understand how you could construe this as confirming the Dhamma.
that's the problem, you skimmed, i read and invited to read and not skim

this is what happens to an elephant when all a person perceives of it is its tail, sad :shrug:

as they say 'don't judge a book by its cover' :reading:

whew
Mkoll wrote: That's the impression I got from what you wrote earlier:
LXNDR wrote:against the argument 'why do we need this, we already have buddhavacana?' it can be said that Roberts unlike the suttas actually describes and reflects on the no-self experience and mechanism of being when no self exists
~~~
I'm curious: Did you actually read her book?
impressions, assumptions, wrong views, mental fermentations, oh well

no i didn't read her books

(i'm anticipating the next question to see whether my gut feeling is true)
Last edited by LXNDR on Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by LXNDR » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:54 pm

No_Mind wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
transient
But then the question arises - if the self disappears how does the arahant perform daily tasks. For example to put it bluntly - when you are in a bus and you want to pee your self tells you not to pee till you find a restroom.

If an arahant has no transient self then will he pee where he is standing? Some entity in the brain has to command "wait and pee when the bus stops and you find a restroom".

It is not like having a lobotomy is it?

Also I wanted to ask a question which is rather sensitive. If some one slaps an arahant will he not become annoyed? Then who is becoming annoyed?

This is not a joke but a serious question.
accommodation to the new way of functioning takes time for them, in other aspects the body functions on its own, the life force drives it, this is how awakened people describe it, including Bernadette Roberts

cannot speak for an arahant, i personally think they cannot become annoyed because their emotional self is gone, that's what is meant by dispassion and equanimity, no movement inside, perfect stillness
Last edited by LXNDR on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bananaporridge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by bananaporridge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:56 pm

hello nomind,at this moment my understanding is that the word 'self' as a label is a conceptual construct that we use to keep this illusory world in place,ie. a survival technique.An arahant will not pee openly in public because he knows it to be wrong action.On being slapped on the face he would show compassion towards the assailant and possibly teach that person on kamma as in the results of unwholesome actions.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:06 pm

bananaporridge wrote:hello nomind,at this moment my understanding is that the word 'self' as a label is a conceptual construct that we use to keep this illusory world in place,ie. a survival technique.An arahant will not pee openly in public because he knows it to be wrong action.On being slapped on the face he would show compassion towards the assailant and possibly teach that person on kamma as in the results of unwholesome actions.
"he knows it" and the knower is also clinging to a view (that it is wrong)

There is a knower then. But how can that be. If self identity is abolished how can there be a knower. I can understand self view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi) as abolished by a stream-enterer.

If someone who has greater knowledge can please write about what is an arahant's view of self.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

bananaporridge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by bananaporridge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Once again I have images of small dogs chasing their tails.! No offence to dogs or anyone else intended.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1936
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:38 pm

bananaporridge wrote:Once again I have images of small dogs chasing their tails.! No offence to dogs or anyone else intended.
Although I am not offended but delighted to be called a puppy - I can hardly be held responsible for your incomplete explanation.
bananaporridge wrote:hello nomind,at this moment my understanding
Previously you wrote "at this moment my understanding" meaning you do not have full understanding yet you call me a dog !! Strange behavior from a Buddhist !!
I know one thing: that I know nothing

bananaporridge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: What is No-Self?

Post by bananaporridge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:53 pm

I neither called you a dog or refer to myself as a buddhist.I wish you all the best nomind I'm sorry if my original post to you on this subject wasn't helpful for you.best wishes and metta to you.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: KenD, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 81 guests