Anatta - a hindrance?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:22 am

bharadwaja wrote:
Aloka wrote:Tilt already explained this to you bharadwaji.

When someone becomes an arahant they have already entered "the deathless".
I do not deny he gave me an answer, but my counter-questioning is because Tilt's interepretation does not hold, read what you just quoted.
You have not shown that it does not hold. You simply claim that that is the case, but as usual you offer no textual analysis, and you really offer no real argument for your position. We simply get your opinion as to what you think, for whatever unstated reason, the truth is.
Think about this --- If the deathless is only attained at death, then it is not attained before death. If it is attained before death, then it did not prevent death, so it was not really attained.
As has been pointed out to you, amata, is not "only attained at death"; rather, as the Buddha makes clear in his own accounting of his awakening, amata is attained with unbinding, with awakening, sambodhi. No Vedantic absolute is needed - no SAT CHIT ANANDA, no TAT TVAM ASI. None of that stuff. Not needed and not taught by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:26 am

Sylvester wrote:
Just to chime in here on Tilt's reference to MA 62 - http://w3.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?lin ... 6_p0497b02

The passage he cites says "無我, 空我" (no-self, empty of self). This does not appear to be a typo, since in the same sutra, anatta is indicated by the standard Agama idiom 非我 (not-self).

:anjali:
Ven Huifeng also verified it. You are in great company. And a big thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mkoll
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:27 am

bharadwaja wrote:
Mkoll wrote:You claim you're an arahant and if that were the case you would know Nibbana, not be perplexed by it.

So why are you asking all these questions about it?
Compassion for those who are led astray by wrong views. The Buddha asked the bhikkus questions rhetorically to clarify their thought process, not because he was himself perplexed by the topic he was questioninng them about.
Goodness gracious...

Are you now claiming you are not perplexed by what we're talking about?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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bharadwaja
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by bharadwaja » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:40 am

Mkoll wrote:Goodness gracious...

Are you now claiming you are not perplexed by what we're talking about?
Yes it is true that I am not perplexed. If I were myself perplexed, I would not bother to oppose a wrong statement, for to me it would be pointless to oppose your perplexity with mine.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:43 am

bharadwaja wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Goodness gracious...

Are you now claiming you are not perplexed by what we're talking about?
Yes it is true that I am not perplexed. If I were myself perplexed, I would not bother to oppose a wrong statement, for to me it would be pointless to oppose your perplexity with mine.
Goodness, indeed. You may not be perplexed, but you are certainly coming across as confused.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Unrul3r
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Unrul3r » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:48 am

Sylvester wrote:Just to chime in here on Tilt's reference to MA 62 - http://w3.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?lin ... 6_p0497b02

The passage he cites says "無我, 空我" (no-self, empty of self). This does not appear to be a typo, since in the same sutra, anatta is indicated by the standard Agama idiom 非我 (not-self).

:anjali:
I see. Thank you, Sylvester.

Anyhow, in regards to holding views, I trust more in wisdom, the Suttanipata & a whole pile of other suttas. If I were to take a stance such as "There is no self" or "There is a self", I know that it would be troublesome for me. So, even if that specific Agama sutra says "There is no self", I wouldn't take a stance on it anyway.

Would you hold any of those views?

:anjali:

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bharadwaja
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by bharadwaja » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:54 am

The reason I am not perplexed is I have the benefit of knowing a great deal more about the pre-Buddhist philosophical tradition, the knowledge of which the Buddha himself had.

So I see it from his eyes, and it makes sense. You see the Buddha & the Dhamma from your own eyes.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:55 am

Unrul3r wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Just to chime in here on Tilt's reference to MA 62 - http://w3.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?lin ... 6_p0497b02

The passage he cites says "無我, 空我" (no-self, empty of self). This does not appear to be a typo, since in the same sutra, anatta is indicated by the standard Agama idiom 非我 (not-self).

:anjali:
I see. Thank you, Sylvester.

Anyhow, in regards to holding views, I trust more in wisdom, the Suttanipata & a whole pile of other suttas. If I were to take a stance such as "There is no self" or "There is a self", I know that it would be troublesome for me. So, even if that specific Agama sutra says "There is no self", I wouldn't take a stance on it anyway.

Would you hold any of those views?

:anjali:
Until awakening, you are going to hold views whether you want to or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:56 am

bharadwaja wrote:The reason I am not perplexed is I have the benefit of knowing a great deal more about the pre-Buddhist philosophical tradition, the knowledge of which the Buddha himself had.
So you claim, but not that you have demonstrated.
So I see it from his eyes, and it makes sense. You see the Buddha & the Dhamma from your own eyes.
Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mkoll
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:57 am

bharadwaja wrote:The reason I am not perplexed is I have the benefit of knowing a great deal more about the pre-Buddhist philosophical tradition, the knowledge of which the Buddha himself had.

So I see it from his eyes, and it makes sense. You see the Buddha & the Dhamma from your own eyes.
So do you believe you aren't perplexed now? Or do you believe you have not been perplexed this entire thread?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Aloka
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Aloka » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:59 am

bharadwaja wrote:
Did you listen to the Ajahn Amaro talk I provided for you, by the way ?
Not fully. Where and what does it answer?

You're going to have to do your own homework, bharadwaja. I'm not writing a transcript as well!

:)

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Unrul3r
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Unrul3r » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:Until awakening, you are going to hold views whether you want to or not.
That is your claim, not mine. As far as I know, holding views is over at sotāpanna. If you hold onto any, I just hope you won't suffer by them.

:anjali:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:05 am

Unrul3r wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Until awakening, you are going to hold views whether you want to or not.
That is your claim, not mine. As far as I know, holding views is over at sotāpanna. If you hold onto any, I just hope you won't suffer by them.

:anjali:
I did not say it was your claim, but good luck with not holding views.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Unrul3r
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by Unrul3r » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:I did not say it was your claim, but good luck with not holding views.
tiltbillings wrote:Until awakening, you are going to hold views whether you want to or not
:anjali:

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bharadwaja
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Re: Anatta - a hindrance?

Post by bharadwaja » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:12 am

Mkoll wrote:So do you believe you aren't perplexed now? Or do you believe you have not been perplexed this entire thread?
I lost perplexity (that I once had) many many moons before this thread started.
Aloka wrote:Your going to have to do your own homework, bharadwaja. I'm not writing a transcript as well!
That is only fair. But what I had to do has already been done. I need dhamma lectures no more, for I already have knowledge of the self (attaññū). My asking you what the point was, was under the impression you were trying to argue a point. Apologies if the video was not a reply to a point I was making.
:namaste:
Last edited by bharadwaja on Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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