The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
Dexing wrote:First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings.
This is just so wrong.
It is the usual polemic that the Mahayana teaches. Maybe Dexing will spend some time here to learn what it is that the Theravada actually teaches.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:
Dexing wrote:First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings.
This is just so wrong.
It is the usual polemic that the Mahayana teaches. Maybe Dexing will spend some time here to learn what it is that the Theravada actually teaches.
Yes that is my hope, Tilt.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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alan
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by alan »

Dex reminds me of someone. The style. The attitude.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:. . .Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.
What it does clarify is that Mahayana really does not understand or address the Theravada. What you have presented is the usual Mahayana polemic against the supposed hinayana, a straw man construct.
Actually I finnd Dexing's post refreshingly honest. What he is saying indeed shows all the triumphalism and assumption of superiority that is prevelant in the Mahayana. even if it is not universal.
The reality though is if one spends time in Mahayana circles that type of view is far more typical than the views of a small proportion of those Mahayana students who join a Theravada Forum. That is the real thing in its natural state. It is absolutely the default view in the Vajrayana, as it is in some Zen circles.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:. . .Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.
What it does clarify is that Mahayana really does not understand or address the Theravada. What you have presented is the usual Mahayana polemic against the supposed hinayana, a straw man construct.
Actually I finnd Dexing's post refreshingly honest. What he is saying indeed shows all the triumphalism and assumption of superiority that is prevelant in the Mahayana. even if it is not universal.
The reality though is if one spends time in Mahayana circles that type of view is far more typical than the views of a small proportion of those Mahayana students who join a Theravada Forum. That is the real thing in its natural state. It is absolutely the default view in the Vajrayana, as it is in some Zen circles.
Yeah. it is a statement that represents a polemical point of view and it is an argument from ignorance. An amusing variation is played by the OP in this thread found elsewhere: http://www.zenforuminternational.org//v ... 7&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Precisely so.
For many years I belonged to one of the more progressive and radical of Vajrayana Sanghas and we were told repeatedly that the Theravada represents a playschool version of Buddhism for those yet to cut their teeth.
It was said in a kindly way. More in sorrow than in anger. More in sympathy than in rejection. In fact not in rejection at all. Because we were also told repeatedly that " the Vajrayana starts where the Theravada ends , it contains it " etc etc.
Which is also the default position of the owners of ZFI. Even if it does not quite do justice to the views of all of that forums mods.
Now I dont think that Theravadins should lose sight of the moral high ground..but I do blink and swallow sometimes when it is suggested that the Theravada sees itself uniquely as the superior vehicle...yeah right..
Last edited by PeterB on Tue May 25, 2010 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by jcsuperstar »

ug i really need to remind myself not to click those links to other forums... every time i just end up reading the silliest stuff, which reminds me just how different zen people are in real life from on the internets.... :toilet:
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PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Its just reality jc superstar..Greory Wonderwheel is only unusual in that he is forthright about it.
I was present at a dialogue between Bhikkhus from Chithurst and Bhikshus from the Soto Zen sangha at Throssel Hole.
The dialogue was characterised by two factors..a search for commonality AND a recognition that real dialogue starts witha recognition of actual difference..not by attempting to fabricate a single pan- Buddhism.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:Its just reality jc superstar..Greory Wonderwheel is only unusual in that he is forthright about it.
I was present at a dialogue between Bhikkhus from Chithurst and Bhikshus from the Soto Zen sangha at Throssel Hole.
The dialogue was characterised by two factors..a search for commonality AND a recognition that real dialogue starts witha recognition of actual difference..not by attempting to fabricate a single pan- Buddhism.
To be picky, Soto Zen does not have Bhikshus.

An imprtant point, of course, for dialogue is that in recognizing the actual differences does not require that any one position trumps the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

They were western Soto monks of some kind Tilt..I assumed that they were Bhikshus, perhaps not technically though..
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:They were western Soto monks of some kind Tilt..I assumed that they were Bhikshus, perhaps not technically though..
Bhikshu would imply a Vinaya ordination, which is something "lost" to the Zen schools for particular historical reasons. While that over-laird of the grey forum used that fact to beat up on the Zen monks on the grey forum, that does not mean that the Zen monastics are not monastics. They probably should not be called bhikshu.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

What does Theravada say about "the illusion of all phenomenal existence" ?
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

I think it says that we need to be careful what we translate as " illusion " among other things.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Shonin wrote:What does Theravada say about "the illusion of all phenomenal existence" ?
One thing that is clearly said is the all dhammas are empty of any sort of self existing thingness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

The piece of rope might not be a snake. But at the moment it IS a transient compounded thing called a piece of rope.
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