The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:But 999,999 people are the product of one person's mind.
Steven Speilberg?
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:57 am

Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But 999,999 people are the product of one person's mind.
Steven Speilberg?
Maybe Ignmar Bergam or David Cronenberg. I'd opt for Bergman.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But 999,999 people are the product of one person's mind.
Steven Speilberg?
Maybe Ignmar Bergam or David Cronenberg. I'd opt for Bergman.
One beetle recognises another.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:17 am

Goofaholix wrote:
One beetle recognises another.
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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jcsuperstar
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
One beetle recognises another.
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge?
no but google does :tongue:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
One beetle recognises another.
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge?
ไหมได้

jc is onto my secret.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:02 am

Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
One beetle recognises another.
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge?
ไหมได้

jc is onto my secret.
dóite
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:
As for your first question, perhaps you are more familiar with the Pali Suttas than I. Are external objects or the Form Aggregate for example ever refuted in Theravada as not being objective existence?
Interestingly, you have criticized and characterized the Theravada and the Pali suttas in terms of the Mahayana polemic against what the Mahayana calls the hinayana, but you seem not to have a real handle on what is found in the Pali suttas. In terms of realization, in terms of practice, show us where in the Pali suttas the Buddha talks about “objectively existing” khandhas?
I never said the Pali Suttas talk about "objectively existing" Aggregates, but that they don't talk about them not being objective existence. Which means the teachings in the Pali Suttas are allowing this view in order to discuss the selflessness of the Aggregates, but never affirms what ordinary beings take for granted- that the Five Aggregates are truly existent.

And as I have found, the Pali Suttas actually implicitly state the opposite, as I shall demonstrate in a following post.
tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:
This is the very problem I'm trying to address. You think you can see, hear, smell, taste and touch external objects.

Your eyes only see color. Your ears only hear sound. Your nose only smells fragrances. Your tongue only tastes flavors. Your body only feels tactile sensations.

Color is not an external object. Sound is not an external object. Fragrance is not an external object. Flavor is not an external object. Sensation is not an external object.
But is there color, etc to be seen, etc? In what way is there color, etc? If this is all a product of the mind, then what need would there be for the other sensory organs?
Q: Is there color, etc. to be seen, etc.?
A: Not objectively.

Q: In what way is there color, etc.?
A: As subjective creation of consciousness.

Q: What need would there be for the other sensory organs?
A: Since the eyes can't hear, the ears can't see, etc. there is a separate organ for each experience. Human beings have this result of karma to see, hear, etc. in this way. But when sleeping or dead the eyes don't see and the ears don't hear, etc.. That's because eyes and ears, etc. don't have separate consciousnesses. They are merely called such (eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc.) but without the cognitive-consciousness, or "mind-consciousness", the eyes, ears, etc. can't see, hear, etc.. Because it is the functioning of the one mind in six (actually eight) aspects.

:namaste:

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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Far better articles on Yogacara: What is and isn't Yogācāra and The Crux of the Yogåcåra Project
If you want to read something on Yogacara, best stick with the Yogacara texts or teachings in line with them, rather than reading Dan Lusthaus' personal imputations on the subject.

:namaste:

Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:12 pm

Goofaholix wrote:If the characteristics are created by mind, and 1,000,000 people perceive a table and 99% of them (excepting those who are colour blind) perceive it as blue, why is it that they perceive the same characteristic each with their own minds?
Because of individual karma, as well as collective karma as human beings.

Beings of each of the Six Paths share perceptions in their particular path. Such as Humans, Animals, Devas, etc.. They all perceive differently from path to path, but similarly or the same within their paths. Those who have very closely connected karmas experience the same or similar perceptions, although it is all due to their karma not external objects. It is the movement of their minds.
Now if you you were to say they each have a different subjective experience of blue, some like blue some don't for example, I'd agree. But to say they all created the characteristic blue in their minds and that there was no stimulus for this and nothing that caused them to perceive much the same characteristic is just silly.
There is stimulus and something that caused them to perceive the same characteristics. That is karmic seeds.

But Ordinary Beings do not perceive the flow of mind and working of karma, and so attach to the experience as real external reality.

:namaste:

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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:32 pm

alan wrote:Hi Dexing
Well now I guess you're going to have to show us where these ideas are implicit.
Take care not to slander! :smile:
Take for example the familiar Sabba Sutta- "The All".

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."


So "the All" is the sense organs and their objects. We have already seen that these objects (color, sound, fragrance, etc..) are subjectively created by consciousness. Some would like to suggest however that what stimulates these conscious experiences are some external objects.

That however would "lie beyond range". There is no grounds for such a statement.

Now this doesn't explicitly state that "external objects" are unreal, illusory, non-existent, etc.. It is however stated implicitly here as this is explained to be "the All" and only lists subjective appearances.

Later (Mahayana) teachings then explicitly state this and explain it in very minute detail.

I have not found where Pali Suttas explicitly state the reality of any such phenomena. They are taken for granted in order to teach Dependent Origination, aimed at ending attachment to phenomena, but never explicitly affirmed. Rather it is implicitly denied. And later explicitly explained in Mahayana teachings.

My point in this thread is that to attain the Bodhisattva Path one must arrive at this insight. However, Theravada teachings only state it implicitly so that we don't fall into Nihilism without knowing the reality of the state of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. And since the fundamental ignorance and attachment of Ordinary Beings to phenomena is sooo strong and has been growing since time without beginning, it is not possible that one will come to this insight upon studying the Pali Suttas, until their accomplishment is more thorough and they are taught explicitly and can confirm it.

:namaste:

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Prasadachitta
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Prasadachitta » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:59 pm

Dexing wrote:And since the fundamental ignorance and attachment of Ordinary Beings to phenomena is sooo strong and has been growing since time without beginning, it is not possible that one will come to this insight upon studying the Pali Suttas, until their accomplishment is more thorough and they are taught explicitly and can confirm it.
Thank You Dexing,

That is an interesting opinion. I think insight is unlikely upon mere study regardless of the text in question. I wonder what exactly you wish to accomplish here.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:10 am

Dexing wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Far better articles on Yogacara: What is and isn't Yogācāra and The Crux of the Yogåcåra Project
If you want to read something on Yogacara, best stick with the Yogacara texts or teachings in line with them, rather than reading Dan Lusthaus' personal imputations on the subject.
Lusthaus is a world class scholar whose work is highly regarded.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:36 am

Dexing wrote:Because of individual karma, as well as collective karma as human beings.

Beings of each of the Six Paths share perceptions in their particular path. Such as Humans, Animals, Devas, etc.. They all perceive differently from path to path, but similarly or the same within their paths. Those who have very closely connected karmas experience the same or similar perceptions, although it is all due to their karma not external objects. It is the movement of their minds.
So you are saying that some people perceive the table as red, but call it blue, and some perceive is as green but call it blue, depending on their kammic seeds or which of the six paths they are on. Presumably only Bodhissatvas perceive what blue as blue then.

Sometimes one has to make up more nonsense to explain the old nonsense.
Dexing wrote:There is stimulus and something that caused them to perceive the same characteristics. That is karmic seeds.
You can believe that if you want to but I'm quite happy to assume that the table is the stimulus.

Nobody is saying that each individual doesn't perceive colour for example as a subjective process of conciousness, that's a given, what isn't a given is that there isn't something outside of that individuals conciousness stimulating that perception.
Dexing wrote: But Ordinary Beings do not perceive the flow of mind and working of karma, and so attach to the experience as real external reality.
Well, I musn't be an ordinary being as I'm quite capable of perceiving the flow of mind and working of karma in my own life, though doing so consistantly and completely is another thing entirely.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:52 am

Goofaholix wrote:So you are saying that some people perceive the table as red, but call it blue, and some perceive is as green but call it blue, depending on their kammic seeds or which of the six paths they are on. Presumably only Bodhissatvas perceive what blue as blue then.
How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion? Rereading my own post I have no idea. Unless I misunderstood your original question.
You can believe that if you want to but I'm quite happy to assume that the table is the stimulus.
That's fine, but as I have seen Buddhism in any tradition would not support your assumption.
Well, I musn't be an ordinary being as I'm quite capable of perceiving the flow of mind and working of karma in my own life, though doing so consistantly and completely is another thing entirely.
On a very shallow level of course. But "completely" is what I was referring to. If one thoroughly perceived mind in such a way they would be an enlightened being, and would have put an end to it.

:namaste:

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