Come to think of it, perhaps worldly people simply think that affection and any kind of business interest would be wasted on an avid Buddhist, so they shun those Buddhists, or indirectly or directly threaten to shun them.barcsimalsi wrote:That’s what my experience tells me. Unless it involves politics or fanatics from other faith, i don’t see much complexity in such stereotype.binocular wrote:Hm. So you think that those worldly people are just worried about avid Buddhists?
Buddhists are losers?
Re: Buddhists are losers?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
I actually think that this can be applied to followers of any religions. Christians that take Jesus' teachings on worldly wealth seriously, Hindus that take the ascetic path, etc. There are Buddhists that pursue worldly success and the spiritual life at the same time (canonically obviously Anathapindaka but many who are alive today as well) much as there are Christians/Muslims/Hindus who do the same. It is also important to remember the Pali Canon has pieces such as the Mangala Sutta which are clearly aimed at those who are still in the world.
May all beings be happy!
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
It's only a loss if there where something to lose in the first placerobertk wrote:I saw this on another thread.Perhaps we can examine this idea on this thread.
For all practical intents and purposes, being a Buddhist means that one will quite likely be a loser in worldly terms. Not necessarily a doormat, but quite likely a loser.
There is a real, visible, measurable worldly price that one has to be willing to pay for practicing Buddhism.
before enlightenment: chop wood and carry water
after enlightenment: chop wood and carry water
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you
We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you
We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Buddhists are losers?
Even if Buddhists are losers in worldly terms what does that really mean? Being a winner means having to be around people all the time, make money, gain fame, entertain people (I could go on and on) Why is it really so bad to be a loser? For me personally it doesn't sound to bad to know we're all worthless it's like a weight lifted off your shoulders to know that you're worth nothing.Quite simply it feels like freedom. I think the real problem is everyone thinks they're special and destined for greatness and fame, renown...blah blah blah and as a result you have all these SELF THOUGHT supermodels, intellects, movie stars, w.e. Seriously being a loser is probably the best thing in the world to be Using the literal meaning and playing off the word
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
Re: Buddhists are losers?
I saw two separate threads about two elder monks (20 or so years in robe) leaving the Order due to falling in love with two women. From the posts there it seems some considered them as losers, I do feel the same. I remember reading Buddha saying one who disrobe due to a woman is similar to a warrior who run away after losing the battle.
Also, I heard a story where a boy asking permission to ordain and the parents and relatives accused him of being a looser for not developing a career, earning money, having a wife and children...
In the end three of them are Buddhist losers in their respective context. But I think in Dhamma way becoming the biggest loser (an Arahant) is the highest goal which will make one to lose the Samsara for ever.
Also, I heard a story where a boy asking permission to ordain and the parents and relatives accused him of being a looser for not developing a career, earning money, having a wife and children...
In the end three of them are Buddhist losers in their respective context. But I think in Dhamma way becoming the biggest loser (an Arahant) is the highest goal which will make one to lose the Samsara for ever.
Re: Buddhists are losers?
Can you lose things that are not truly yours in the first place? You can build beautiful and elaborate sandcastles and enjoy them while they last. You just can't take them home with you.
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.
"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Gain arises for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person. He does not reflect, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
I would not be so judgmental, not knowing the all that was at play in their choices.Denisa wrote:I saw two separate threads about two elder monks (20 or so years in robe) leaving the Order due to falling in love with two women. From the posts there it seems some considered them as losers, I do feel the same. I remember reading Buddha saying one who disrobe due to a woman is similar to a warrior who run away after losing the battle.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhists are losers?
You mean something like that the woman threatened the monk: "if you don't marry me I'll commit suicide!" So, out of compassion to save that being, the monk let go of his robe and celibacy... Could be!tiltbillings wrote:I would not be so judgmental, not knowing the all that was at play in their choices.
For sure my feeling towards that issue is not THE final judgment, neither yours, but I believe Dhamma has enough medicine for this kind of situations if one is mindful and willing to apply them, especially after 20 years being a monk of some note!
EDIT: Sometimes I noticed a bit of "minimisation" when come to such issues.
Last edited by Denisa on Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Buddhists are losers?
pegembara wrote:Can you lose things that are not truly yours in the first place? You can build beautiful and elaborate sandcastles and enjoy them while they last. You just can't take them home with you.
62. The fool worries, thinking, "I have sons, I have wealth." Indeed, when he himself is not his own, whence are sons, whence is wealth?
Dhammapada
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
No blackmailing of a monk implied. Also, I never said my feelings were the final judgment, nor have I implied much less said anything about yours. Simply, unless the once-monk tells you why he has done what he has done, not being a mind reading Buddha, we simply do not know why he has opted to act the way he has. And being a monk is not necessarily the sine qua non of Dhamma practice.Denisa wrote:You mean something like that the woman threatened the monk: "if you don't marry me I'll commit suicide!" So, out of compassion to save that being, the monk let go of his robe and celibacy... Could be!tiltbillings wrote:I would not be so judgmental, not knowing the all that was at play in their choices.
For sure my feeling towards that issue is not THE final judgment, neither yours, but I believe Dhamma has enough medicine for this kind of situations if one is mindful and willing to apply them, especially after 20 years being a monk of some note!
EDIT: Sometimes I noticed a bit of "minimisation" when come to such issues.
Movtivation for behavior is often very difficult to determine. Given the case of Japanese monk (the other of whom I know nothing), I am more than willing to give him the benefit of consideration, given his experience and age.Sometimes I noticed a bit of "minimisation" when come to such issues.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhists are losers?
Oh dear... the reason I mentioned the two monks and ALSO THE BOY is to talk about losers as examples from both sides taking the face value of the stories, nothing else, I didn't even mentioned names. Because from the boy's relatives point of view, monks leaving the Order and going back to join the lay life would be the correct thing -- a winner. I never thought it might go this far!
From Dhammapada:
If he had disrobed and lived a solitary life, that would have been a different matter. But to disrobe and get married to a wealthy beautician, now that indicates lust. I just wonder what are the reactions will be if the Dalai Lama disrobes and marries Madonna (tongue in cheek). Anyway, letting go can be practiced either way...tiltbillings wrote:Movtivation for behavior is often very difficult to determine. Given the case of Japanese monk (the other of whom I know nothing), I am more than willing to give him the benefit of consideration, given his experience and age.Sometimes I noticed a bit of "minimisation" when come to such issues.
From Dhammapada:
However, about the Japanese monk (since you mentioned): I already mentioned in another thread in Lounge that I have a friend in Thailand. She also a beautician who took meditation instructions from the Japanese monk. In the beginning of January 2012, she told me something an affair between the Japanese monk and another beautician, that's I think more than one year before his leaving the robe. Anyway, this is my last post about the Japanese monk.13. Just as rain breaks through an ill-thatched house, so passion penetrates an undeveloped mind.
19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others — he does not partake of the blessings of the holy life.
259. A man is not versed in Dhamma because he speaks much. He who, after hearing a little Dhamma, realizes its truth directly and is not heedless of it, is truly versed in the Dhamma.
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
Assuming the beautician story is true, which is questionable; however, assuming it is not, getting married or not, standing on the outside, looking at the surface, motivation remains elusive. Also, calling loser/winner is irrelevant.Denisa wrote: . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhists are losers?
A strog one is not the one who win over everybody, a strong one is the one who once win over himself.
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Re: Buddhists are losers?
Perhaps we can examine this idea on this thread.[/quote]robertk wrote: For all practical intents and purposes, being a Buddhist means that one will quite likely be a loser in worldly terms. Not necessarily a doormat, but quite likely a loser.
There is a real, visible, measurable worldly price that one has to be willing to pay for practicing Buddhism.
I think it's difficult to generalise, but presumably Buddhists are less concerned with worldly gain and success - or at least less worried if it doesn't happen. So the priorities for a Buddhist are probably different.
Buddha save me from new-agers!