Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
- lyndon taylor
- Posts: 1835
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
- Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Well then if you don't deny that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, multiple realms, devas deities, etc as real, then my comments don't apply to you, do they???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
No, which is why I don't understand why you keep directing them at me.lyndon taylor wrote:Well then if you don't deny that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, multiple realms, devas deities, etc as real, then my comments don't apply to you, do they???
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
- lyndon taylor
- Posts: 1835
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
- Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
I'm actually not directing anything at you specifically, but rather generally aiming at people that wish to rewrite the Buddhas teaching to fit their own view, if the shoe fits wear it. I have no problem accepting that in some instances, hell in the scriptures refers to a psychological state, just not all the time or even most of the time.
It seems to me people in the buddha's time were more superstitious and took, ghost spirits, demi gods, heavens and hells very literally, much more so than today, no matter how much a non superstitious person wants to deny many or all of those things today, he can't go back in history and turn the Buddha into a secular humanist. These things were part of their world, whether real or not, and they needed little faith to believe in this. We learn by accepting that they saw things differently than many do today, not by rewriting history to have a Buddha that agrees with all our pet modern theories or non beliefs.
It seems to me people in the buddha's time were more superstitious and took, ghost spirits, demi gods, heavens and hells very literally, much more so than today, no matter how much a non superstitious person wants to deny many or all of those things today, he can't go back in history and turn the Buddha into a secular humanist. These things were part of their world, whether real or not, and they needed little faith to believe in this. We learn by accepting that they saw things differently than many do today, not by rewriting history to have a Buddha that agrees with all our pet modern theories or non beliefs.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Thank you for your calm and reasoned contribution to the discussion, Jason. Its much appreciated.
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
lyndon taylor wrote:Well then if you don't deny that the Buddha taught literal rebirth, multiple realms, devas deities, etc as real, then my comments don't apply to you, do they???
Don't forget about magical snakes and a big mountain in the middle of a flat earth
Facts are awkward things
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
I'm actually not directing anything at you specifically, but rather generally aiming at people that wish to rewrite the Buddhas teaching to fit their own view, if the shoe fits wear it.
Ever thought that might be what your doing?
Just a thought
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
-
- Posts: 10159
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Analogous to, certainly, but that's not the same as saying they are the same thing. I still don't see any evidence that the realms were intended as psychological states in the suttas. IMO it's like arguing that Hell is a metaphor, based on what the Bible says - it's possible to argue this case but it seems very tenuous and speculative.Jason wrote: The passage I posted above is one example where I think the psychological and cosmological aspects of becoming and rebirth are directly compared, illustrating their relationship, i.e., where rearising in an 'injurious world' is analogous to the experience of painful feelings (an aspect of mind) like beings in hell, suggesting to me that hell itself can also refer to an unpleasant mental state as much as it can a literal place one rearises:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
-
- Posts: 10159
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
It seems to me that in the suttas the cosmological and psychological are 2 sides of the same coin, and IMO attempting to divorce one from the other leads to misunderstanding - in any case I don't see the evidence for a purely psychological interpretation.Jason wrote: While I wasn't so convinced of this at first, other suttas and the opinions of other translators/commentators have since convinced me that the psychological aspects aren't necessarily as divorced from the cosmological as many assume. One of the things that really got me seeing things this way is the fact that the term loka (world/realm) itself is often used as a metaphor for the five aggregates, the six sense spheres, and/or the internal world of fabricated experience .
The use of "loka" is interesting, though in context it looks to me like a figure of speech meaning "my world" or "our world" - I think it can be viewed as descriptive of the human realm.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
I think we agree more than we disagree then. I think if you step back and read what I've said this entire thread, it's eminently clear that I'm not trying to divorce one from the other or proposing a purely psychological interpretation, but that I'm trying to show how they're both relevant, especially in places like AN 4.235.Spiny Norman wrote:It seems to me that in the suttas the cosmological and psychological are 2 sides of the same coin, and IMO attempting to divorce one from the other leads to misunderstanding - in any case I don't see the evidence for a purely psychological interpretation.Jason wrote: While I wasn't so convinced of this at first, other suttas and the opinions of other translators/commentators have since convinced me that the psychological aspects aren't necessarily as divorced from the cosmological as many assume. One of the things that really got me seeing things this way is the fact that the term loka (world/realm) itself is often used as a metaphor for the five aggregates, the six sense spheres, and/or the internal world of fabricated experience .
The use of "loka" is interesting, though in context it looks to me like a figure of speech meaning "my world" or "our world" - I think it can be viewed as descriptive of the human realm.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Regarding the various planes, this talk by Bhante Anandajoti is really informative and entertaining. He explains in a very comprehensible way, how the various planes of existence are both psychological, and cosmological, 'realms':
I find this talk can give inspiration to put forth more effort into purifying one's generousity and virtue...especially, to at least keep those five precepts really purely. Human realm and above, fine; but
lower realms - best avoided...
I find this talk can give inspiration to put forth more effort into purifying one's generousity and virtue...especially, to at least keep those five precepts really purely. Human realm and above, fine; but
lower realms - best avoided...
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
lyndon taylor wrote:Because to believe the Buddha was talking figuratively, not literally when he talked at length, over and over about rebirth, other realms, conversation with devas etc etc, you would really have to be twisting around his words from what they plainly say, The Buddha wasn't a secular Buddhist, quite the opposite, why can't you just man up to you disagree with the Buddha, instead of trying to put your modern ideas in his mouth.......and try and make your ideas fit with his.
To be fair Jason isn't doing that at all, from his posts he is simply saying that "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
I would say that's a fair assessment of what's in the suttas
Unless I'm misreading of course
Some good points btw Jason
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
-
- Posts: 10159
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
But not as purely psychological. Not in the suttas anyway.clw_uk wrote:... "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Could be that these are two ways of understanding life processes amongst dependent consequences; in any event the point seems to me to be coming to grips with idapaccayata sans ritualism, self-aggrandizement, and so forth. This is an individual effort that isn't assisted by comparing and contrasting metaphysical speculations.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
Spiny Norman wrote:But not as purely psychological. Not in the suttas anyway.clw_uk wrote:... "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
There is both in the suttas
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?
daverupa wrote:This is an individual effort that isn't assisted by comparing and contrasting metaphysical speculations.
I hope more people will understand this.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa