I'd rather be reborn

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:22 am

curiosity wrote:I see you've been reduced to facetiousness, good day.

Just trying to lighten the mood dude :)


Why so serious? :twisted:
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Mkoll
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Mkoll » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:34 am

Hi curiosity,

This sutta might answer some of your questions indirectly.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

curiosity
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:38 am

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tiltbillings
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:47 am

curiosity wrote: It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.
Why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

curiosity
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:48 am

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Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

curiosity
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:49 am

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clw_uk
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:50 am

curiosity wrote:After some reading it seems as though those who escape Samsara and reach Nirvana will see Dhamma (the truth).

Who is the one doing the seeing?

It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.

Any clarification?


Dhamma and nibbana are just the way it is at the moment

Right view is seeing how things rise and fall, and so are dukkha if clung to and not self

When you think of "who is seeing" you automatically fall into the trap of clinging to body, feeling, perception, thoughts or consciousness as "me"

If you see them as "not me", then you dont cling

There is no dukkha and there is nibbana


I think your trying to "think" your way into nibbana, which wont work
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clw_uk
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:53 am

If there is no soul, no "one," how does the cycle of rebirth work?
Saying there is no "soul" is clinging, just like saying there is one ...

The "cycle of rebirth" happens here and now, no need to wait for furture lives

If I cling to a partner, and they have sex with someone else, then "I" become a "hell being", filled with rage

If I enjoy cocaine, and I cant get it anymore because I have run out of money, then I am a hungry ghost ...
If one is nothing but an illusion, how is that that same "one" remains between bodies/births?
Pointless speculation

If there is nothing eternal, what is there to remain between births?
Pointless speculation
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curiosity
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:58 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:06 am

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tiltbillings
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:07 am

curiosity wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
curiosity wrote: It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.
Why?
Because Nirvana entails the elimination of all feelings, thoughts, consciousness, etc.

How is it any different than absolute annihilation?

Reaching Nirvana eliminates "one," and without "one" is there is no one to see anything.
Says who?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

curiosity
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:13 am

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clw_uk
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:15 am

The fact remains that whether or not we cling to our particular body/thoughts, we are all experiencing different bodies/thoughts/etc.
Who?
Who/what is the one doing the experiencing (the "experiencer")?
Who?
Does Nirvana not entail the elimination of the experiencer?
Where does the idea of "experiencer (sic)" come from?
And if it does, and the "experiencer" is eliminated, then there is nothing to experience the Dhamma. Complete annihilation.
Annihilation of what, of who?
If you have to eliminate the experiencer to realize Dhamma, then there is no one experiencing/realizing the Dhamma.
No Buddhist would say that

As Ajahn Sumedho said, the personality doesnt become enlightened :)
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clw_uk
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:16 am

How can there be "future lives" if there is no one?
I am a Buddhist and I don't subscribe to future lives, that's your overlay ;)
How is it that the same "non-existent one" gets transferred to another "non-existent one" if there is nothing to be transferred?
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tiltbillings
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:25 am

clw_uk wrote:
How can there be "future lives" if there is no one?
I am a Buddhist and I don't subscribe to future lives, that's your overlay
Good to know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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