We need new rules

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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SDC
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Re: We need new rules

Post by SDC »

alan wrote:We no longer walk around India. Rules made for a group of monks 2500 years ago do not necessarily apply to our lives, or work for our betterment. Worshipping rules, and following them mindlessly, is slowly strangling Buddhism, and It will kill it eventually. Why? Because no one who has a creative, independent mind will put up with it. Lose those people, and you lose it all.

We need to take a fresh look at how to go about things, friends. Let's start with getting rid of all the accumulated junk.
There is some truth to the image you are presenting, but not the vinaya nor any other aspects of the dhamma are to blame. People make it what it is, and there are very few who are an inspiration. But those that are make up for the others - at least in my experience. The key is to be patient, resilient and relentless in one's pursuit of the goal. Find the dhamma in your own experience.

What does "Buddhism" even mean these days? That is such a broad concept that if one were to attempt to use it the only image it would conjure up is one of a large group of people that can't even agree on what it means to be a "Buddhist". Like you said - strangling. It is a very dangerous thing to attempt to draw inspiration from that. The beauty is buried deep. Always was and always will be.

Just my opinion. :smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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m0rl0ck
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Re: We need new rules

Post by m0rl0ck »

I dont know about this. Zen/Chan masters have been vilifying the old rules for so long that new rules might upset the tradition.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Sokehi
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Sokehi »

m0rl0ck wrote:I dont know about this. Zen/Chan masters have been vilifying the old rules for so long that new rules might upset the tradition.
excelent :clap:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Dan74
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Dan74 »

m0rl0ck wrote:I dont know about this. Zen/Chan masters have been vilifying the old rules for so long that new rules might upset the tradition.
I don't know about 'vilifying' - just teaching against attachment and fetishising (which is already present in the Pali Suttas ). The discipline in those old Chan monasteries was often very strict.
_/|\_
chownah
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Re: We need new rules

Post by chownah »

David N. Snyder wrote:None of those 'offenses' are parajikas so I assume they would continue to be monks, especially with the 'confession'.
So, would they be punished?
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Digity
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Digity »

I've personally never had an issue with how the teachings were taught. If you don't like all the rules don't become a monk. No one is forcing you. The Buddha wasn't about converting everyone over to his way. He knew a lot of people would never come to see the truth of his teachings. I practice as a lay person and follow the five precepts. What are you suggesting? Give up the precepts and have free reign to do what you want so that we can get more "creative" people? I don't understand what you're suggesting needs to be changed. You're just making vague references to needing an overhaul without providing any real details. At my center, no one is forced to follow rules or anything. The precepts are encouraged, but anyone is welcomed. If anything, I think what makes Buddhism so great is that it's open to all and the rules apply as much as you wish them too...depending on how much you want to deepen your practice. I took up the precepts, because I wanted to improve my meditation. Drinking and waking up with a hangover isn't very conductive to mindfulness....I mean, there's a *reason* why these rules exist. The Buddha didn't just make random stuff up as he went along to make our lives difficult.

If anything, the rules have made me appreciate the teachings even more, because they show you what's conducive to following the right path and what isn't. The rules are like sign posts saying...careful now, there's danger here. I appreciate the warning. Although, if you just follow the rules blindly then that's not very wise. You should put some thought into why they're there in the first place.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Ajahn Chah managed to be extremely creative while living within the structure of the Theravāda monastic discipline.

Intelligent and creative people don't have a problem with following rules, but others clearly do. The rules need to be understood and practised in both the spirit and the letter.

The significance of some rules is hard to understand in the present day and age, but I cannot recall ever being offered a rug made of pure black goat's wool.

The rules for lay people are surely easy enough to understand and apply sensibly?
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cooran
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Re: We need new rules

Post by cooran »

Hello Alan,

Which specific rules for lay people are you talking about? Please give detailed examples.

With metta,
Chris
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alan
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Re: We need new rules

Post by alan »

See my original post.
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cooran
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Re: We need new rules

Post by cooran »

Hello Alan,

Your original post doesn't give any details or references about rules for lay people. Could you expand on that post please?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

alan wrote:We need to take a fresh look at how to go about things, friends. Let's start with getting rid of all the accumulated junk.
The accumulated junk we need to get rid of is the rites and rituals — holy threads, amulets, astrology, mandalas, tantras, guru worship, and initiations. In brief, all of the stuff that has infiltrated Buddhism from other religions and cultures. To know what is the Buddha's original teaching and what is not, takes some patient study.

Those who think they are smarter than the Buddha, make up their own rules, and start introducing stuff from western culture into Buddhism.

We should learn the lessons from history by looking at what happened to Buddhism in Buddhist countries when they discarded the rules laid down by the Buddha. All that's bad about Asian Buddhism is due to lack of respect for the tradition, and that inevitably leads to misunderstanding the purpose of the rules.
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Dan74
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Dan74 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
alan wrote:We need to take a fresh look at how to go about things, friends. Let's start with getting rid of all the accumulated junk.
The accumulated junk we need to get rid of is the rites and rituals — holy threads, amulets, astrology, mandalas, tantras, guru worship, and initiations. In brief, all of the stuff that has infiltrated Buddhism from other religions and cultures. To know what is the Buddha's original teaching and what is not, takes some patient study.

Those who think they are smarter than the Buddha, make up their own rules, and start introducing stuff from western culture into Buddhism.

We should learn the lessons from history by looking at what happened to Buddhism in Buddhist countries when they discarded the rules laid down by the Buddha. All that's bad about Asian Buddhism is due to lack of respect for the tradition, and that inevitably leads to misunderstanding the purpose of the rules.
Why do you mention tantra and mandalas in the same list as holy threads and astrology, Bhante? I would've thought a man of your intelligence and learning would perceive the difference between superstition and transformative practices, let alone refrain from violating TofS without a substantive reason?

By substantive reason I mean if as a Theravada Venerable you have studied these practices and found them to be inefficacious in aiding liberation or even leading further into delusion, for the benefit of our Vajrayana brothers and sisters, you would put forward a case why this is so. A throwaway remark like the one above does not do justice to this, IMO.

For the benefit of those who are interested in finding out something, there is this informative link:

http://viewonbuddhism.org/tantra_practice.html
_/|\_
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:In brief, all of the stuff that has infiltrated Buddhism from other religions and cultures. To know what is the Buddha's original teaching and what is not, takes some patient study.
Please provide some references if you can to show that Mantra and Tantra are the Buddha's teaching and not junk accumulated from other religions as I say they are.
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tiltbillings
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Re: We need new rules

Post by tiltbillings »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:In brief, all of the stuff that has infiltrated Buddhism from other religions and cultures. To know what is the Buddha's original teaching and what is not, takes some patient study.
Please provide some references if you can to show that Mantra and Tantra are the Buddha's teaching and not junk accumulated from other religions as I say they are.
You might not like mantras and tantras, but you might want to be a little less disrespectful here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: We need new rules

Post by Dan74 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:In brief, all of the stuff that has infiltrated Buddhism from other religions and cultures. To know what is the Buddha's original teaching and what is not, takes some patient study.
Please provide some references if you can to show that Mantra and Tantra are the Buddha's teaching and not junk accumulated from other religions as I say they are.
I am not arguing that they are the historical Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings, but there can be a case made (if you check the link I posted above, for example) that they serve the same purpose. And if they do indeed help to lead from ignorance to enlightenment, from bondage to liberation, then the label 'junk' is not appropriate.

Where I come from, we say 'whatever gets the job done' and an openness to various means is often a good thing, IMO.

That said, of course there are various accretions in all traditions and the Dalai Lama himself has decried Tibetan superstitious preoccupation with various spirits and deities but this is not to be confused with Tantra, which has a specific purpose.
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