What is controlling?

[barcsimalsi]

Addressing 2 instances of mind activities:
1 Mind wander off and thoughts proliferate due to habitual tendency.
2 Mind acts according to the will with clear awareness.

The former shows mindfulness isn't there while the latter suggest mind is in control. The question is:
Since thoughts are just volitional process, the "i" is an illusion besides for conventional use, consciousness shall be seen as consciousness, there's no controller or knower, then what is it that is controlling the mind and distinguish the 2 different instances above?

EDIT:
Apologies for not being clear. For the bold part, i'm not advocating the idea that some entity outside the mind is controlling the mind, but to know which part of the mind that is providing the will to direct or restrain the process of thinking when one is mindful.

[SarathW]

Hi
If you understand the following you will have the answer.
Step no 8 related to your question.
==============


Mind in its passive and active forms

The mind occurs in both passive and active modes. The passive gives way to the active when a stimulus is received through one of the sense doors. The passive state of mind is called bhava"nga, cuti, or paa.tisandhi, according to the occasion.

Bhava"nga. The bhava"nga citta, mentioned earlier, is the primary form of mind. It flows from conception to death except when interrupted by a stimulus through one of the sense doors. When a stimulus enters, consciousness becomes active, launching into a thought process (citta viithi). Thought processes have been analyzed in great detail in the Abhidhamma.

A complete thought process, occurring through the physical sense doors, is made up of seventeen thought moments (citta kha.na). These are:
1.A bhava"nga that flows by in a passive state when one of the five physical sense organs comes in contact with its object (atiita bhava"nga).
2.A bhava"nga that vibrates for one thought moment (bhava"nga calana).
3.A bhava"nga that cuts off the flow (bhava"nga upaccheda).
4.A citta that turns towards the object through the sense door that has been stimulated (pañcadvaara-vajjana).
5.The appropriate sense consciousness; in the case of the eye, for example, eye consciousness (cakkhu viññaa.na).
6.Next a thought moment — the sampa.ticchana citta — which has the function of receiving the object.
7.When the object has been received another thought moment, called the santiirana citta, arises, performing the function of investigating the object.
8.The act (kamma) itself, especially if it was a weighty one.
9 to 15.The object having been determined, the most important stage from an ethical standpoint follows. This stage, called javana, consists of seven consecutive thought moments all having an identical nature. It is at this stage that good or evil is done, depending on whether the cittas have wholesome or unwholesome roots. Therefore, these javana thought moments have roots and also produce new kamma.16 and 17.Following the seventh javana the registering stage occurs, composed of two thought moments called tadaalambane. When the second registering citta has perished, the bhava"nga follows, flowing on until interrupted by another


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html

[barcsimalsi]

Thanks, it is very informative.
As i see it, it has a lot to do with different types of cittas but i still can't grasp the whole thoughts process clearly.

Can you help simplify or explain it metaphorically if possible? (just for the part that relate to my question)

[daverupa]

Without making reference to thought-moments, it's simply incorrect to think of either process as being involved with any essential controller. Think only in terms of causes & conditions: with X as cause, wandering mind according to tendencies or confusion or similar. With Y as cause, clear awareness and the possibility to align with the Dhamma and similar.

Engage Y, eliminate X. Repeat. When the mind asks questions about selves or controllers, you can note that X is happening again, and engage Y without even answering the question.

[kirk5a]

Addressing 2 instances of mind activities:
1 Mind wander off and thoughts proliferate due to habitual tendency.
2 Mind acts according to the will with clear awareness.

The former shows mindfulness isn't there while the latter suggest mind is in control. The question is:
Since thoughts are just volitional process, the "i" is an illusion besides for conventional use, consciousness shall be seen as consciousness, there's no controller or knower, then what is it that is controlling the mind and distinguish the 2 different instances above?

I think it's better to become familiar with the actuality of the cases you mention. (It's like this). That is seeing the situation clearly. Supposing it has to conform to philosophical notions like "there is no controller, there is no knower, so what is controlling?" is where the confusion comes in. The Buddha didn't teach like that, he didn't teach "there is no controller, there is no knower"

[SarathW]

Thanks, it is very informative.
As i see it, it has a lot to do with different types of cittas but i still can't grasp the whole thoughts process clearly.

Can you help simplify or explain it metaphorically if possible? (just for the part that relate to my question)

Hi
We all can have only one thought moment at a time.
Even Buddha will have only one thought (pay attention) moment at a time.

Just imagine that the thought moments are like a never ending bouncing ball.
Say when it hit the ground (or bounce back) is one thought moment.

Based on that say you had the first thought moment of wondering mind (say lust for opposite sex)(old Kamma).
Say you learned (reading a book) about the mindfulness in the second thought moment (new kamma).
So when the third thought moment comes you will have the clear awareness (old Kamma = second thought)

I hope this clarifies your question.
Best way you will understand this is by regular Vipassana meditation.

[barcsimalsi]

Without making reference to thought-moments, it's simply incorrect to think of either process as being involved with any essential controller. Think only in terms of causes & conditions: with X as cause, wandering mind according to tendencies or confusion or similar. With Y as cause, clear awareness and the possibility to align with the Dhamma and similar.

Engage Y, eliminate X. Repeat. When the mind asks questions about selves or controllers, you can note that X is happening again, and engage Y without even answering the question.

To engage Y and eliminate X, there must be something preceding them to direct or evaluate thoughts and intention. Also, X and Y must be identified before engaging. What is it that precedes X and Y as causes to determine? Can it be just another set of X and Y?

[barcsimalsi]

Hi
We all can have only one thought moment at a time.
Even Buddha will have only one thought (pay attention) moment at a time.

Just imagine that the thought moments are like a never ending bouncing ball.
Say when it hit the ground (or bounce back) is one thought moment.

Based on that say you had the first thought moment of wondering mind (say lust for opposite sex)(old Kamma).
Say you learned (reading a book) about the mindfulness in the second thought moment (new kamma).
So when the third thought moment comes you will have the clear awareness (old Kamma = second thought)

I hope this clarifies your question.
Best way you will understand this is by regular Vipassana meditation.

Thanks for clarifying, so it is the data that the mind had gathered which determines how it will operates.

[SarathW]

Hi
Please read page 49 of the following:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

[khlawng]

in simplistic term and as i see it;

...then what is it that is controlling the mind and distinguish the 2 different instances above?

craving is the origination of volition. and what is craving? attachment to what is pleasing and aversion to what is displeasing.
and what is the origination of craving? ignorance. ignorance of the dhamma and the inability to see the truth.
with ignorance and craving, self-illusion or "I" arises.

...so it is the data that the mind had gathered which determines how it will operates.

data is data. mind is mind. both are independant.
with ignorance, the mind caves in to craving, hence the action on data.
and when there is action, self-illusion arises.
that is how things outside of the dhamma operates.

[kirk5a]

data is data. mind is mind. both are independant.
with ignorance, the mind caves in to craving, hence the action on data.
and when there is action, self-illusion arises.
that is how things outside of the dhamma operates.

So simply moving the legs is giving rise to self-illusion in your view?

[barcsimalsi]

From my latest contemplation,
When there's awareness to think, will/intention also arises.
Awareness without thinking = plain observation.
Thinking without awareness = stray thoughts.
The will/intention to think or stop thinking, without any controller, is part of the thinking process itself.

I appreciate the details provided by Abidhamma but the whole thought process described is too deep for me to grasp right now so need more time on that.

Thanks again everyone.

[dxm_dxm]

Just imagine that the thought moments are like a never ending bouncing ball.
Say when it hit the ground (or bounce back) is one thought moment.

Based on that say you had the first thought moment of wondering mind (say lust for opposite sex)(old Kamma).
Say you learned (reading a book) about the mindfulness in the second thought moment (new kamma)

In this view there would be no place for free will. The buddhist sistem advocates for the free will and has free will as a fundamental requisite for it to be true. Buddhism belives in compatibilism, meaning there is free will but it is not total free will because it is constrained by conditions.

I would like the answer to this quetion or a link adressing this question too. Who is there that has the free will ? The ilusion of self witch has the choice of chosing to follow the desirable thaughts and actions it wants contrained by conditions creaded by it;s previsious choices ?

[reflection]

Addressing 2 instances of mind activities:
1 Mind wander off and thoughts proliferate due to habitual tendency.
2 Mind acts according to the will with clear awareness.

The former shows mindfulness isn't there while the latter suggest mind is in control. The question is:
Since thoughts are just volitional process, the "i" is an illusion besides for conventional use, consciousness shall be seen as consciousness, there's no controller or knower, then what is it that is controlling the mind and distinguish the 2 different instances above?

EDIT:
Apologies for not being clear. For the bold part, i'm not advocating the idea that some entity outside the mind is controlling the mind, but to know which part of the mind that is providing the will to direct or restrain the process of thinking when one is mindful.

Acting with clear awareness also becomes a habitual tendency. At first it seems like "something" interferes but it is just circumstances that do so. Later on this feeling of an interfering thing disappears because acting with awareness becomes more like the default way of being. It can even be that wandering off into thoughts becomes the thing that requires an act of will. So there is no essential part of the mind that is doing this - no essential "free will" or thing like that. The mind is always changing and no part is constant or above others.

[barcsimalsi]

So there is no essential part of the mind that is doing this - no essential "free will" or thing like that.

On the context of choosing to be aware, i agree, it is more on refining the practice to create wholesome tendency.

However, when the mind is aware of itself it can choose what to think, what not to think and recollect what has been learned. How can we deny freewill in this process?