Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:07 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Does that break Buddhist moral code, or is the Buddhist moral code subjective/relative?
You tell me.

Is then murder justified in Buddhism, if it saves lives?
You tell me.

I was asking you ... :coffee:
So, in other words, you have no idea.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:21 am

So, in other words, you have no idea.

Once again, I was asking Your opinion

So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.


I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/
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tiltbillings
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:29 am

clw_uk wrote:
So, in other words, you have no idea.

Once again, I was asking Your opinion

So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.


I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/
Better than you, no doubt. At this point in the discussion, you need to be stating what you think rather than asking others here to do the heavy lifting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:32 am

Better than you, no doubt. At this point in the discussion, you need to be stating what you think rather than asking others here to do the heavy lifting.

No dear, you need to answer my post first ;)

Better than you, no doubt
I would be careful of inductive reasoning ;)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.

As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)


:)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.

As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it certainly will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)
So, as you have consistently argued poorly in the past, I can safely assume that you are going to continue that trend, though I would have no problem with being shown to be wrong. Good luck with that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 am

Well if you dont answer me, then how can you see if I fail again or not, in your eyes :)

Yet atm I'm better off getting blood from a stone than getting a meaningful response from you


Though on a side note, your understanding of my recent posts in the rebirth thread has been, shall we say, poor at best. :P
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:56 am

I suppose its because he did not try to compose some unifying ethical theory.
There is a section in Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhist ethics p49 on Comparisons with Western ethical systems.
Interesting point

Would you see western ethical theories as a failure as they try to reduce morality to one concept?
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Samma » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 am

I don't know, what constitutes a failure, all the various well known theories tend to address and make good points right?
A key aspect of Western ethical systems is that moral prescriptions
should be universally applicable to all people who can understand them.
Buddhism, though, is generally gradualist in approach, so while it has
ethical norms which all should follow from a sense of sympathy with
fellow beings (such as not killing living beings), others only apply to those
who are ready for them, as their commitment to moral and spiritual
training deepens. (Harvey, p. 51)
Remembering what was said and done long ago :reading: ...chp 16 of idiots guide to ethics makes the points of mixing recipes, "Life is complicated, and no single theory can adequately handle all the myriad life-and-death dilemmas that crop up."
http://www.books.google.com/books?id=IN ... ing+Ethics

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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by DNS » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:27 am

clw_uk wrote: Interestingly I can't seem to define Buddhas ethics, be it deontological, consequentialist, natural ethics, sceptical or subjective etc.
Perhaps all of the above.

Much of the Vinaya --> deontological
Skillful means --> consequentialist
4NT, DO, kamma --> natural ethics
Investigation, energy vicaya, viriya --> skeptical
Vinaya changing over time and circumstances --> subjective

But mostly natural ethics. Living beings are naturally subject to pain and suffering and there is a way to the end of suffering. Kamma and DO are natural events that can be observed and experienced.

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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:26 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:25 am

Hi clw_uk,
clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.

As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)


:)
Inductive reasoning is only a problem when we forget that it is about probability and not about a uniformity principle. In all likelihood, the sun will rise tomorrow. Likewise, Tilt merely proposed you're likely to behave like he's observed you behaving in the past. From what I know of Tilt, he has strong obersvational powers and a fairly accurate track-record. It is in your power and your power only to provide a counterinductive example via your behavior and perform well--by his standards--in debate.
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:39 am

Hi David, clw_uk,
David N. Snyder wrote:
clw_uk wrote: Interestingly I can't seem to define Buddhas ethics, be it deontological, consequentialist, natural ethics, sceptical or subjective etc.
Perhaps all of the above.

Much of the Vinaya --> deontological
Skillful means --> consequentialist
4NT, DO, kamma --> natural ethics
Investigation, energy vicaya, viriya --> skeptical
Vinaya changing over time and circumstances --> subjective

But mostly natural ethics. Living beings are naturally subject to pain and suffering and there is a way to the end of suffering. Kamma and DO are natural events that can be observed and experienced.
Which is another way of saying that the closest thing Buddhist ethics comes to in Western philosophy is humanist and pragmatist ethics.
Kindly,
dL

danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:42 am

Hi clw-uk,
clw_uk wrote:
I suppose its because he did not try to compose some unifying ethical theory.
There is a section in Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhist ethics p49 on Comparisons with Western ethical systems.
Interesting point

Would you see western ethical theories as a failure as they try to reduce morality to one concept?
There are several Western ethical theories that reject such reductionism. Again, humanism and pragmatism come to mind.
Kindly,
dL

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