Re: Who is GOD in Buddhism?
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:19 pm
Basically, god is an unnecessary concept.
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Maybe not. Remember that the majority of people in the world believe in God. If a future Buddha arises and wants to save all beings, numberless as they are, from suffering and death, then the Buddha would have to speak to them in terms of what they accept "God."tiltbillings wrote:Basically, god is an unnecessary concept.
Not necessarily. The Dalai Lama, who teaches among god believers, does not see a necessity in god-language:Son of man wrote:Maybe not. Remember that the majority of people in the world believe in God. If a future Buddha arises and wants to save all beings, numberless as they are, from suffering and death, then the Buddha would have to speak to them in terms of what they accept "God."tiltbillings wrote:Basically, god is an unnecessary concept.
The Buddha, himself dealt with the idea of a singular creator god:In THE GOOD HEART: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus (pub by Wisdom), the Dalai Lama comments on a number of
Gospel passages and has dialogues with a number Christians about this.
It is a wonderful book, showing that dialogue is possible and showing
the kind of work that such dialogue entails, in this book the Dalai Lama
states:
"The entire Buddhist worldview is based on a philosophical standpoint
in which the central thought is the principle of interdependence, how all
things and events come into being purely as a result of interactions
between causes and conditions. Within that philosophical world view, it
is almost impossible to have any room for an atemporal, eternal,
absolute truth. Nor is it possible to accommodate the concept of divine
Creation [page 82]"
Now consider the following way in which the concept of God and the faith in God can be useful even to a Buddhist, especially if a Buddha tried to convert the whole world of theists who believe in God to Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings:
All theistic religions believe that love is the key to understanding God, and that love is of God.
The theistic religions’ god is not so perfect or loving as these Buddhist texts show:...it is important to realize that Buddhists are atheists only insofar as they reject the hypothesis that the world had a single benevolent intelligent creator, and the hypothesis that any transcendent source communicates directly to human beings individually or collectively.
In rejecting these hypotheses, however, the Buddhist does not reject the virtues that are usually attributed to God. The Buddhist believes, for example, in the power of love and in trust and forgiveness and patience and compassion. But rather than saying that God is love, we prefer to say that love is love; in this way, even if it should be proven that God does not exist, the ideal of love would remain unimpaired. Similarly...we Buddhists prefer to say that good is simply good and beauty is simply beauty and justice is simply justice, and there is no need to confuse these principles with the bewildering and controversial concept of divinity.
--Land of No Buddha: Reflections of a Sceptical Buddhist by Richard P. Hayes, pub: Windhorse Publications, 1998, chapter 6.
And the Buddha made it neatly clear that one does not need a god notion to attaint to perfect love and compassion.That is "Perfect Love" described perfectly, and hence it is Siddhartha Gotama who ulitmately described God -- the being who had the knowledge of the salvation of all beings, numberless as they are, from suffering and death."
Not at all.Faith is believing in something that is unknowable. Siddhartha Gotama's vow was therefore the expression of having absolute faith in "Perfect Love" which all religions call God.
Not at all. What the Buddha had faith - confidence - in is the possibility of knowing all that is needed to be known. Nothing unknowable. To the contrary, what the Buddha knew, he taught we, too, could know. No need for some unknowable being, ultimately imperfect being, that people call god.Siddhartha Gotama therefore had absolute faith in the Unknowable-Perfect:
That is a later construct and a pious hyperbole. While it is inspiring and noble, the reality is that the Buddha did not save all sentient beings; rather, he made the way known for awakening, but each of us must make the effort ourselves."Although beings are numberless, I vow to save them all from suffering."
But I never spoke about a "creator god" in my argument. I only spoke of the concept of "God" being in common that all theistic religions believe "love is of God". Furthermore the God that I am describing, never existed in the past and remains the God-to-be fullfillment of all beings, numberless as they are, being saved from suffering all having eventually found their way to the Deathless. The God-to-be is a CONCEPT that could indeed be helpful to THEISTS who both believe in God and also that love-or-compassion is of God. Remember the argument here isn't that Buddhists need a "God" concept but theists certainly do.The Buddha, himself dealt with the idea of a singular creator god:
"That Worshipful Brahma, the Great God, the Omnipotent, the
Omniscient, the Organizer, the Protection, the Creator, the Most Perfect
Ruler, the Designer and Orderer, the Father of All That Have Been and
Shall Be, He by Whom we were created, He is permanent, Constant,
Eternal, Unchanging, and He will remain so for ever and ever."
God, in time, became a good Buddhist, recognizing that he too was bound by kamma and mortal.
Yes people need a God notion if they will not give up the belief in God. Look around you. Again, it's too late to say people don't need God. It's already well established and so well established among the much greater majority of the population in the world.That is "Perfect Love" described perfectly, and hence it is Siddhartha Gotama who ulitmately described God -- the being who had the knowledge of the salvation of all beings, numberless as they are, from suffering and death."
And the Buddha made it neatly clear that one does not need a god notion to attaint to perfect love and compassion.
What if the Buddha had knowlegde of the salvation of all beings, but at the same time he also knew that it depended upon his teachings and also the teachings of future Buddhas?Siddhartha Gotama therefore had absolute faith in the Unknowable-Perfect:/I disagree that the Buddha had faith. I didn't say the Buddha had faith, I said Siddhartha Gotama had faith. And he did, because he was not yet enlightened as to whether or not it was possible, and he so he was believing in something that was to him -- before his enlightenment -- utterly unknowable.
Not at all. What the Buddha had faith - confidence - in is the possibility of knowing all that is needed to be known. Nothing unknowable. To the contrary, what the Buddha knew, he taught we, too, could know. No need for some unknowable being, ultimately imperfect being, that people call god.
That is a later construct and a pious hyperbole. While it is inspiring and noble, the reality is that the Buddha did not save all sentient beings.
Buddha teaches the way to end delusion; if this future Buddha you mention included the God Delusion in his teachings he would be reinforcing that delusion, not getting the student closer to ending the delusion. A Mahayanist might allow for this future Buddha teaching that way as "skillful means", but a Theravadin won't. A perfected one isn't even capable of lying.Remember that the majority of people in the world believe in God. If a future Buddha arises and wants to save all beings, numberless as they are, from suffering and death, then the Buddha would have to speak to them in terms of what they accept "God."
A "God" concept is not only not needed, it is part of the problem that Buddha's teachings are the solution to.Remember the argument here isn't that Buddhists need a "God" concept but theists certainly do.
I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a Theravadin who believes Gotama ever said this.Siddhartha Gotama therefore had absolute faith in the Unknowable-Perfect:
"Although beings are numberless, I vow to save them all from suffering."
I really don't know if that's true or not. Where did the bodhisattva's vow originate from? I thought that it was well accepted that was the Buddha-to-be's vow.I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a Theravadin who believes Gotama ever said this.Siddhartha Gotama therefore had absolute faith in the Unknowable-Perfect:
"Although beings are numberless, I vow to save them all from suffering."
If the god is not a creator god, what good is it? As for a god of love, we really do not see much evidence of that. As Mark Twain supposedly said: If there is a God, he is a malign thug. Love is a human emotion.Son of man wrote:
But I never spoke about a "creator god" in my argument. I only spoke of the concept of "God" being in common that all theistic religions believe "love is of God"
Such a construct, which obviously then has no basis in reality, is not needed as the Buddha himself has shown, as has the Dalai Lama. Also, it ignores the fact that capital g god carries a great deal of baggage that runs counter to the Dhamma.Furthermore the God that I am describing, never existed in the past and remains the God-to-be fullfillment of all beings
And your way is the way to do it? Based upon what? You think a Buddha would be that poor of a teacher?Remember the argument here isn't that Buddhists need a "God" concept but theists certainly do.
And it was well established at the time of the Buddha.Yes people need a God notion if they will not give up the belief in God. Look around you. Again, it's too late to say people don't need God. It's already well established and so well established among the much greater majority of the population in the world.
Not quite correct. Best go back and reread the suttas that talk about his struggle to awakening.I disagree that the Buddha had faith. I didn't say the Buddha had faith, I said Siddhartha Gotama had faith. And he did, because he was not yet enlightened as to whether or not it was possible, and he so he was believing in something that was to him -- before his enlightenment -- utterly unknowable.
What if? It still does not necessitate using a concept so highly freighted and so highly problematic as a god, as a center piece.What if the Buddha had knowlegde of the salvation of all beings, but at the same time he also knew that it depended upon his teachings and also the teachings of future Buddhas?
In other words, it is not a meaningful concept.Looking at the smaller picture in the concept of time you could say that the Buddha did not save all beings from suffering in his own time, nor in the present time. That does not mean that all beings will not be saved, nor does it mean that the Buddha did not possess the knowledge of the salvation of all beings [no matter how long it would have taken].
I think the question should rather be: Where is God in Buddhism? Which one could answer then simply with: he isn't there. Son of man gave a rather smart answer with: "Understanding the law of cause and effect which is an aspect of God,the fear of God in Buddhism would be the contemplation of the consequences of wrongful thoughts and actions." That's very diplomatic. However, your question goes to show -above all- what a nonsense compulsory religious education is and how pitifully inadequate the teacher's criteria are.Winny wrote:Hi guys, I've just graduated from a Christian high school. In my school, there are 15% of Buddhist students. All of the students must learn the religion lesson for 3 years, which in the end, we had to do the final test. In that test, the teacher asked me: Do you fear of God?
That was a tricky question for me, because I don't believe in God. It's sad to say, but the teacher also mocked Buddhism, when I said Buddhism doesn't teach to fear of God. Am I wrong? So based on my answer, I might got a bad score. Sometimes I could hardly explain what is 'God' in Buddhism to my friends. And actually, I don't even know whether we have a God. What is the concept of God in Theravadin? So, please explain to me.
In the form you quoted it, it something composed 7+ centuries after the Buddha's death by Mahayanists.Son of man wrote:I really don't know if that's true or not. Where did the bodhisattva's vow originate from? I thought that it was well accepted that was the Buddha-to-be's vow.I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a Theravadin who believes Gotama ever said this.Siddhartha Gotama therefore had absolute faith in the Unknowable-Perfect:
"Although beings are numberless, I vow to save them all from suffering."
God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?
And your way is the way to do it? Based upon what?Remember the argument here isn't that Buddhists need a "God" concept but theists certainly do.
It really does not show much insight into the actual teachings of the Buddha, as we seen. Your link gives us a lot of bible quotes, but nothing to show how they supposedly relate to the Buddha's actual teachings.Son of man wrote:And your way is the way to do it? Based upon what?Remember the argument here isn't that Buddhists need a "God" concept but theists certainly do.
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This was my best effort.
What does this mean?The Father is the Buddha unbound
/Jesus entered into the Father's eternal glory becoming Christ
How is he?Christ is the door to the Father's eternal kingdom
So the rest can burn?Christ gives the Spirit of the Father to those who believe in him
How do you know the Holy Ghost exists?When the Spirit of the Father is received in us it is called the Holy Ghost
What created God?God is the unity of the Father, the Christ glorified in the Father, and the Holy Ghost in us
What does this mean?The Father is greater than all
The Father: the total unbinding of Shakyamuni Buddhaclw_uk wrote:Hey Son of man
hope you dont mind if i ask you some questions
What does this mean?The Father is the Buddha unbound
What is the "father"?
/Jesus entered into the Father's eternal glory becoming Christ
What does this mean?
How is he?Christ is the door to the Father's eternal kingdom
So the rest can burn?Christ gives the Spirit of the Father to those who believe in him
How do you know the Holy Ghost exists?When the Spirit of the Father is received in us it is called the Holy Ghost
What created God?God is the unity of the Father, the Christ glorified in the Father, and the Holy Ghost in us
What does this mean?The Father is greater than all
metta