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Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:37 pm
by Śūnyatā
A question that has been floating about in my mind lately:

If the observer is observing the doer, who is observing the observer?


Warmly :
Nik

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:56 pm
by reflection
There are no such things as 'doer and 'observer'. These are only words to classify experiences - just teaching tools.
You could also say they are 'activity' and 'watching' or something along those lines.
Then the question would be, is 'watching' watching itself? Which is kind of nonsense, because it's just a verb, not a thing. You can't watch a verb.

But funny thing is, the mind (which also would need a verb, but anyway) can see the mind, but usually this does not happen - only in deep meditation. It's like a mirror, but then again not.

Metta!

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:36 pm
by pulga
Api c'Udāyi titthatu pubbanto titthatu aparanto, dhammam te desessāmi: Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati; imasmim asati idam na hoti, imassa nirodhā idam nirujjhatī ti. Majjhima viii,9 <M.ii,32>

But, Udāyi, let be the past, let be the future, I shall set you forth the Teaching: When there is this this is, with arising of this this arises; when there is not this this is not, with cessation of this this ceases.

To my mind Ven. Ñanavira offers the most convincing explanation of the paradox you've inquired about.

http://nanavira.org/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:51 pm
by kirk5a
Śūnyatā wrote:who?
The Buddha called this sort of questioning inappropriate attention. I do not see anywhere that he talked about "the observer observing the doer." Trying to practice like this can lead to confusion. As you are currently experiencing.
This is how he attends inappropriately: ... he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?
...
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:54 pm
by daverupa
pulga wrote:
Api c'Udāyi titthatu pubbanto titthatu aparanto, dhammam te desessāmi: Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati; imasmim asati idam na hoti, imassa nirodhā idam nirujjhatī ti. Majjhima viii,9 <M.ii,32>

But, Udāyi, let be the past, let be the future, I shall set you forth the Teaching: When there is this this is, with arising of this this arises; when there is not this this is not, with cessation of this this ceases.

To my mind Ven. Ñanavira offers the most convincing explanation of the paradox you've inquired about.

http://nanavira.org/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kirk5a wrote:
Śūnyatā wrote:who?
The Buddha called this sort of questioning inappropriate attention. I do not see anywhere that he talked about "the observer observing the doer." Trying to practice like this can lead to confusion. As you are currently experiencing.
This is how he attends inappropriately: ... he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?
...
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And daverupa delighted in the words of these good Dhamma friends.

:group:

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:13 pm
by pulga
kirk5a wrote: This is how he attends inappropriately: ... he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I?
...
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.
If you look over the Sabbásavasuttam more closely you'll see that the Buddha is contrasting the ayoniso manasikara of the assutavá puthujjana with that of the sutavá ariyasávaka, i.e. whereas the puthujjana is incapable of yoniso manasikara, the sekha, the sutavá ariyasávaka, with the arising of the dhammacakkhuu is able to "attend to the source" of the dukkha that the Buddha's Teaching is meant to alleviate.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:41 pm
by kirk5a
pulga wrote: If you look over the Sabbásavasuttam more closely you'll see that the Buddha is contrasting the ayoniso manasikara of the assutavá puthujjana with that of the sutavá ariyasávaka, i.e. whereas the puthujjana is incapable of yoniso manasikara, the sekha, the sutavá ariyasávaka, with the arising of the dibbacakkhu is able to "attend to the source" of the dukkha that the Buddha's Teaching is meant to alleviate.
I have looked at the sutta more closely and I do not see what you are talking about.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:32 pm
by pulga
kirk5a wrote:I have looked at the sutta more closely and I do not see what you are talking about.
This is apt to pull us into a digression, but here is the part of the Sabbásavasuttam that we're referring to:

"Idha, bhikkhave , assutavā puthujjano – ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto– manasikaraṇīye dhamme nappajānāti, amanasikaraṇīye dhamme nappajānāti. So manasikaraṇīye dhamme appajānanto amanasikaraṇīye dhamme appajānanto, ye dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā, te dhamme manasi karoti, ye dhammā manasikaraṇīyā te dhamme na manasi karoti.

‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme manasi karoti? Yassa, bhikkhave, dhamme manasikaroto anuppanno vā kāmāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā kāmāsavo pavaḍḍhati; anuppanno vā bhavāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā bhavāsavo pavaḍḍhati; anuppanno vā avijjāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā avijjāsavo pavaḍḍhati – ime dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme manasi karoti.

‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, dhammā manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme na manasi karoti? Yassa, bhikkhave, dhamme manasikaroto anuppanno vā kāmāsavo na uppajjati, uppanno vā kāmāsavo pahīyati; anuppanno vā bhavāsavo na uppajjati, uppanno vā bhavāsavo pahīyati; anuppanno vā avijjāsavo na uppajjati, uppanno vā avijjāsavo pahīyati – ime dhammā manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme na manasi karoti.

‘‘Tassa amanasikaraṇīyānaṃ dhammānaṃ manasikārā manasikaraṇīyānaṃ dhammānaṃ amanasikārā anuppannā ceva āsavā uppajjanti uppannā ca āsavā pavaḍḍhanti.

18. ‘‘So evaṃ ayoniso manasi karoti – ‘ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Na nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Kathaṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ hutvā kiṃ ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhānaṃ? Na nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ? Kathaṃ nu kho bhavissāmi anāgatamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ hutvā kiṃ bhavissāmi nu kho ahaṃ anāgatamaddhāna’nti? Etarahi vā paccuppannamaddhānaṃ [paccuppannamaddhānaṃ ārabbha (syā.)] ajjhattaṃ kathaṃkathī hoti – ‘ahaṃ nu khosmi? No nu khosmi? Kiṃ nu khosmi? Kathaṃ nu khosmi? Ayaṃ nu kho satto kuto āgato? So kuhiṃ gāmī bhavissatī’ti?

19. ‘‘Tassa evaṃ ayoniso manasikaroto channaṃ diṭṭhīnaṃ aññatarā diṭṭhi uppajjati. ‘Atthi me attā’ti vā assa [vāssa (sī. syā. pī.)] saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati; ‘natthi me attā’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati; ‘attanāva attānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati; ‘attanāva anattānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati; ‘anattanāva attānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati; atha vā panassa evaṃ diṭṭhi hoti – ‘yo me ayaṃ attā vado vedeyyo tatra tatra kalyāṇapāpakānaṃ kammānaṃ vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti so kho pana me ayaṃ attā nicco dhuvo sassato avipariṇāmadhammo sassatisamaṃ tatheva ṭhassatī’ti. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave , diṭṭhigataṃ diṭṭhigahanaṃ diṭṭhikantāraṃ diṭṭhivisūkaṃ diṭṭhivipphanditaṃ diṭṭhisaṃyojanaṃ. Diṭṭhisaṃyojanasaṃyutto, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano na parimuccati jātiyā jarāya maraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi; ‘na parimuccati dukkhasmā’ti vadāmi.

20. ‘‘Sutavā ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako – ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinīto – manasikaraṇīye dhamme pajānāti amanasikaraṇīye dhamme pajānāti. So manasikaraṇīye dhamme pajānanto amanasikaraṇīye dhamme pajānanto ye dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā te dhamme na manasi karoti, ye dhammā manasikaraṇīyā te dhamme manasi karoti.
‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme na manasi karoti? Yassa, bhikkhave, dhamme manasikaroto anuppanno vā kāmāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā kāmāsavo pavaḍḍhati; anuppanno vā bhavāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā bhavāsavo pavaḍḍhati; anuppanno vā avijjāsavo uppajjati, uppanno vā avijjāsavo pavaḍḍhati – ime dhammā na manasikaraṇīyā, ye dhamme na manasi karoti.

‘‘Katame ca, bhikkhave, dhammā manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme manasi karoti? Yassa, bhikkhave, dhamme manasikaroto anuppanno vā kāmāsavo na uppajjati, uppanno vā kāmāsavo pahīyati; anuppanno vā bhavāsavo na uppajjati , uppanno vā bhavāsavo pahīyati; anuppanno vā avijjāsavo na uppajjati, uppanno vā avijjāsavo pahīyati – ime dhammā manasikaraṇīyā ye dhamme manasi karoti.

‘‘Tassa amanasikaraṇīyānaṃ dhammānaṃ amanasikārā manasikaraṇīyānaṃ dhammānaṃ manasikārā anuppannā ceva āsavā na uppajjanti, uppannā ca āsavā pahīyanti.

21. ‘‘So ‘idaṃ dukkha’nti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti. Tassa evaṃ yoniso manasikaroto tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti – sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā
The point at hand -- as I understand it -- is that the Buddha is making a marked distinction between the puthujjana's ayoniso manasikara from that of the ariyasávaka's yoniso manasikara. The puthujjana isn't an ariyasávaka, and I think it is probably a mistake, a significant mistake, to over look this. This puthujjana/ariyasávaka distinction runs throughout the Suttas, and though it makes our attempt to make progress in the Teaching demanding, almost to the point of appearing hopeless, it is nonetheless there.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:23 pm
by kirk5a
pulga wrote:The point at hand -- as I understand it -- is that the Buddha is making a marked distinction between the puthujjana's ayoniso manasikara from that of the ariyasávaka's yoniso manasikara. The puthujjana isn't an ariyasávaka, and I think it is probably a mistake, a significant mistake, to over look this. This puthujjana/ariyasávaka distinction runs throughout the Suttas, and though it makes our attempt to make progress in the Teaching demanding, almost to the point of appearing hopeless, it is nonetheless there.
Are you suggesting that one cannot even practice appropriate (or wise) attention unless one is already a stream enterer?

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:45 pm
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:[
If you look over the Sabbásavasuttam more closely you'll see that the Buddha is contrasting the ayoniso manasikara of the assutavá puthujjana with that of the sutavá ariyasávaka, i.e. whereas the puthujjana is incapable of yoniso manasikara, the sekha, the sutavá ariyasávaka, with the arising of the dibbacakkhu is able to "attend to the source" of the dukkha that the Buddha's Teaching is meant to alleviate.
You can only make that argument if all the sutta discussions of yoniso manasikāra support that point.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:49 pm
by pulga
kirk5a wrote:Are you suggesting that one cannot even practice appropriate (or wise) attention unless one is already a stream enterer?
Yes, though one needs to keep in mind that yoniso literally means "from the source" which ties into "Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati...".

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:01 pm
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Are you suggesting that one cannot even practice appropriate (or wise) attention unless one is already a stream enterer?
Yes, though one needs to keep in mind that yoniso literally means "from the source" which ties into "Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati...".
And your "from the source" point is?

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:12 pm
by kirk5a
pulga wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Are you suggesting that one cannot even practice appropriate (or wise) attention unless one is already a stream enterer?
Yes, though one needs to keep in mind that yoniso literally means "from the source" which ties into "Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati...".
That's not what the sutta says. It is clearly describing how one gets to stream entry - by the means of wise attention. I don't know what you're getting at with "from the source" either.
As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:14 pm
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote:
pulga wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Are you suggesting that one cannot even practice appropriate (or wise) attention unless one is already a stream enterer?
Yes, though one needs to keep in mind that yoniso literally means "from the source" which ties into "Imasmim sati idam hoti, imass'uppādā idam uppajjati...".
That's not what the sutta says. It is clearly describing how one gets to stream entry - by the means of wise attention.
As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices.
Yes.

Re: Observer of the Observer

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:33 pm
by ground
Śūnyatā wrote:A question that has been floating about in my mind lately:

If the observer is observing the doer, who is observing the observer?
That is not possible. Self consciousness can adopt different "me" identities switching between them but not appropriate them at the same time and this is not observing.
However doing can be observed because there is the eye and the body. :sage: