Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 11:13 am

Alex123 wrote:Is it me, or does the trouble start whenever muslims move to a certain country and start demanding their rights?

How do we know that the difficulty in Burma is due to Buddhists and not muslims themselves? Maybe Buddhists are framed.
It is not possible to peacefully coexist with someone who believes you are wrong.

Arguably, Muslims do believe that the Buddhists are wrong - they consider them to be the faithless, the kafirs. That doesn't sound like a foundation for peaceful coexistence.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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robertk
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by robertk » Sat May 04, 2013 11:33 am

Muslims have lived for decades if not hundreds of yearrs in Myanmar so it seems most of the time they can love quite amicably with their Buddhist brethren.

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 11:38 am

binocular wrote:[You've just demonstrated what is potentially a beginning for a bloody fight.

You twist around what I said. If I were to just let it pass, you'd continue believing that you are right, that you represent me correctly, and then you'd twist around some more. Until the situation progressed to a point where only force can stop you.
I am truly, deeply sorry for you if words on a computer screen can even begin to give rise to thoughts of violence in your head.

binocular wrote:The small fire I'm referring to could be the Muslims claiming, for example, that Buddhism is wrong or of the devil. Which they do, and which "good Buddhists" probably usually just let pass. And then come the consequences of letting it pass.
When the sangha was split by Devadatta, why was there no violent retaliation?

How about when the Buddha's Dhamma was deemed "nastika" (literally heretical or "not true") by the Brahmanic establishment?

In the west today, fundamentalist Christians feel the same way about Buddhism. Should we attack them?

In South Korea there is a long standing feud between the Buddhist establishment and Chirstians. It has led to bloodshed on both sides and has weakened the populace's faith in both supposedly peaceful paths.

Violence is not the answer. Hatred is not the answer. Love and understanding are the answers. The Buddha preached loving kindness and compassion, not bigotry and ethnic violence. I would reccomend you reaccquaint yourself with the Tipitaka and with the Brahma-Viharas.
May all beings be happy!

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 11:44 am

Alex123 wrote:Is it me, or does the trouble start whenever muslims move to a certain country and start demanding their rights?
Those damn Muslims demanding to be treated like people! How dare they!
Alex123 wrote: How do we know that the difficulty in Burma is due to Buddhists and not muslims themselves? Maybe Buddhists are framed
I would say that the evidence all posts to the contrary, and that at least one monk is calling himself the "Buddhist Bin Laden" fairly loudly. But beyond that, the fact that Buddhists (and once again especially Buddhist monastics) should hold themselves to a standard of pacifism and inclusiveness.

Who would be framing the Buddhists? The Burmese government? The western media? Perhaps the hateful bhikkhus are deep cover anti-Buddhists?
May all beings be happy!

binocular
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 11:47 am

Paribbajaka wrote:Love and understanding are the answers.
If only you would demonstrate some.

:shock:

Anyway, you've just proven my point.

:shrug:
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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 12:17 pm

I doubt this story of really bad monks on such a wide-scale.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat May 04, 2013 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Mr Man » Sat May 04, 2013 12:46 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Paribbajaka wrote:Those damn Muslims demanding to be treated like people! How dare they!
They don't believe that non-believers are people. It is suicidal to be peaceful with someone who would want to convert or kill you if given a chance. It is hard to believe those whose faith teaches and encourages to lie to non-believers.
Paribbajaka wrote:Love and understanding are the answers.
Tell that to a hungry wolf who is ready to eat you.
Alex123 are you serious?

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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 12:46 pm

Mr Man wrote:Alex123 are you serious?
Do some research.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 1:00 pm

binocular wrote:
Paribbajaka wrote:Love and understanding are the answers.
If only you would demonstrate some.

:shock:

Anyway, you've just proven my point.

:shrug:
Have I? What point was that?

I mean this in all sincerity, please tell me when I was acting in a non-loving way. Perhaps my refusal to accept excuses for behavior that is against the core of the Dhamma was perceived as a lack of understanding. However, I don't think there is any reason a Buddhist should be acting in the way these Bhikkhus are.
May all beings be happy!

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Alex123 wrote: It is suicidal to be peaceful with someone who would want to convert or kill you if given a chance. ]
Lord Buddha wrote: Happy indeed we live, friendly amidst the hostile. Amidst hostile men we dwell free from hatred.
Oops. These two statements don't seem to work together.


And this is once again ignoring the fact that the Buddhists are the instigators, not the victims. I am not absolving the Muslims of any responsibility, but it is, once again, relatively clear that an ethnic minority is being persecuted by an ethnic majority and that religion is being used as a poor excuse to justify it. Listen to and observe how these monks are acting. There is little room for bias or misrepresentation. As we have seen, even members of the Burmese sa ngha have begun to speak out.
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Mr Man
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Mr Man » Sat May 04, 2013 1:51 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Alex123 are you serious?
Do some research.
It really doesn't take any research. "They" are just people like you and me. Why do you want to spread hatred?

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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:10 pm

Paribbajaka wrote:
Alex123 wrote: It is suicidal to be peaceful with someone who would want to convert or kill you if given a chance. ]
Lord Buddha wrote: Happy indeed we live, friendly amidst the hostile. Amidst hostile men we dwell free from hatred.
Oops. These two statements don't seem to work together.
I hope for peaceful resolution to this event in Burma.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Paribbajaka » Sat May 04, 2013 4:33 pm

Alex123 wrote:Those "hostile" were not as hostile as some faiths today. Guess who contributed to driving Buddhism out from Northern India in 12th century?
I am honestly trying to remain calm and civil about this, but the "things are different now" is one of least favorite logical fallacies. I honestly could never stand it, not when I was a kid and "the needy are different now" was trotted out by Catholic priests to excuse why we were ok being not so charitable, and certainly not now.

If worldy conditions can change so much that something as clear cut as the Buddha's staunch pacifism no longer applies, then why follow anything in the Dhamma?

I don't care what happened in the 12th century. To hold people responsible now for what someone did hundreds of years ago is worse than ridiculous and foolish. How does that make any sense? At all?

There are some points of Dhamma that seem open ended. Ahimsa is not one of these. Violence is never the answer for Buddhists. Never. Those who use violence or bigotry in the name of Buddhism are liars, hypocrites, and worse.

How did the Buddha react to Devadatta? Peacefully
How did he react to Nalagiri? Peacefully
Mucalinda? Peacefully
Angulimala? Peacefully
The Kosalans killing the Sakyans? Peacefully
Rival ascetics who disparaged him, his sangha, his dhamma? Peacefully
Quran wrote: -Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

-Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114

-Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206

-War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

-Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... /long.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... ndex.htm#6
I don't care what someone else's holy book says. I don't care how they act. I care about Buddhism and how Buddhists are expected to act. My religion preaches tolerance and peace. If people from that religion act contrary to the teachings of that religion, they are wrong. Tolerance and peace always win in the long run, and the bigots and the murderers (and their supporters) are remembered in history as exactly that.


Once again, this is not even touching the fact that the Buddhists are the agressors, that the Muslims (in general) have been peaceful for generations.

Violence is always wrong. Violence in the name of peace even more so.

There is no scriptural or historical support for Buddhist monks acting this way. If you are worried that the mean old Muslims are too warlike, ask yourself how Buddhism has survived this long in a warlike world without genocide. It clearly has, so even this point is not valid.

Please show me where the Buddha said racism, opression and war were ok for the right reasons, and I will back down from these points :anjali:
May all beings be happy!

binocular
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by binocular » Sat May 04, 2013 4:48 pm

robertk wrote:Muslims have lived for decades if not hundreds of yearrs in Myanmar so it seems most of the time they can love quite amicably with their Buddhist brethren.
Or maybe they were just putting up with eachother.

People who are merely putting up with others tend to explode, sooner or later.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Alex123
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Post by Alex123 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:56 pm

Paribbajaka wrote:I am honestly trying to remain calm and civil about this,
Hopefully that will happen in Burma.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat May 04, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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