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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:49 am
by DNS
cooran wrote:Hello Alex,
What did the Buddha teach on being violent?
I haven't found anywhere where he encouraged violence in speech, thought or word.
I found a place where the Buddha advocates killing! :o

Here it is:

What is the one thing, O Gotama, whose killing you approve? Having slain anger, one sleeps soundly; having slain anger, one does not sorrow; the killing of anger, with its poisoned root and honeyed tip: This is the killing the nobles ones praise, for having slain that, one does not sorrow.”
Samyutta Nikaya, chapter 2

That is the only place I have found where he advocates killing; and it is the killing of anger. :tongue:

:thumbsup:

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:22 am
by Mr Man
Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:32 am
by pilgrim
Regardless of our opinions of Wirathu, it appears that he has not called for violence. Inciting others to kill is a parajika and in conservative Burma, many Buddhists would be aware of that. It seems that Wirathu's crime is that he has not done enough to call for a stop in the violence committed by others who are in sympathy to his objectives.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:34 am
by cooran
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.
Well said, Mr Man!! :smile:

With metta,
Chris

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:54 am
by Raksha
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.
Almost never, there are one or two exceptions even to this rule. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is forced to maintain a large bodyguard who consider themselves Buddhist yet are prepared to use violence in his defense. Are they really unjust and illegitimate?

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:18 am
by Mr Man
Raksha wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.
Almost never, there are one or two exceptions even to this rule. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is forced to maintain a large bodyguard who consider themselves Buddhist yet are prepared to use violence in his defense. Are they really unjust and illegitimate?
If they are justified their justification is secular.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:46 am
by Alex123
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.

When will we learn from history? Look at India in 12th century...
Look at appeasement of Hitler... How did making peace with him turn out to be?

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:26 am
by Vern Stevens
We learn from history that people will choose to do whatever they want, including violence, and structure their ideology around it for justification. From my limited knowledge, Buddhism is about the least plausible philosophy for justifying the use of violence.

But chatter on a forum doesn't matter. Intent, actions and karma matter.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:55 pm
by Ajatashatru
As far as I am concerned, Buddhism belonging to the Dharma traditions is not static and fossilized but ever evolving. I see some posters here want a quote by Buddha that justifies violence. First question I must ask is do we really have ALL the teachings of the Buddha available. Remember Nalanda library burned for six months.

Secondly, we should read between the lines. We all know Theravada does not prohibit meat. Why is that? Is anybody that naive to think all the animals that we eat just jumped off a cliff :tongue: ? Read between the lines, Buddhism if anything is a sharp contrast to fatalistic Hinduism and Jainism. For example, Buddha actively seeked patronage of King Ajatashatru. Again, I am yet to see a non-western senior Theravada monk condemn this violence in Burma to the degree you guys have. Or perhaps the Asians are too full of superstition to grasp the Buddha's true message and need a guiding Westerner to set them straight. Why don't you preach to the Rakhine in Burma or the Chakma in Bangladesh about the Buddha's true teachings then?

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:58 pm
by Ajatashatru
Alex123 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.

When will we learn from history? Look at India in 12th century...
Look at appeasement of Hitler... How did making peace with him turn out to be?
Exactly. Buddha did not deal with the fascist ideologies we are dealing with today. The kings of his time, while no angels, were relatively benign when compared with contemporary rulers of the world during that time. It is interesting to note that the Dalai Lama justified the testing of nuclear weapons by India in 1998. What is your guys take on that? Will you just not agree with his views because he is Vajrayana?

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:07 pm
by SamKR
Mr Man wrote:Sometimes we make act violently or even feel it is appropriate to act violently. We may even think that we a doing it for the greater good but what we can never do is use the Buddha to justify or give legitimacy to our actions.
:thumbsup:

When using or supporting violence we may think that we are defending the Buddha Dhamma. But in reality we are defending our ego, our identities with the Buddha Dhamma, and our violent nature (which we still need to get rid of according to the Buddha's teachings). It may be possible to protect the cultures and identities by using violence, but then these cultures and identities are not the Buddha Dhamma which cannot be driectly protected by using or supporting violence at all. Buddha Dhamma can mainly be defended by the practice of Dhamma, and the very beginning of that practice necessarily includes non-violence. In fact, it is violence that is a reason of the decline of the Buddha Dhamma in its original form. Of course, defending cultures, identities and political boundaries may perhaps become one of the indirect reasons (not the main reason) for a longer existence of the Buddha Dhamma, but then such defense (by using violence) is the job of the ruler and army of that area, not the job of Dhamma-followers and the monks.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:34 pm
by Alex123
SamKR wrote:When using or supporting violence we may think that we are defending the Buddha Dhamma.
If Buddha Dhamma is not protected (by government, army. Not by Bhikkhus), then darkness will prevail. Life sucks. The strongest survive.

The Buddha didn't live in the time when there were aggressive religions who would like to convert, by fire and sword if neccery all infidels.
So He wasn't teaching this much.

Also, what were his views on slavery?
On rule of Kings?
On torture and capital punishment by the King?

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:52 pm
by Dan74
So the Rakhine=Mogul Invaders=Osama Bin Laden? Just because you are Muslim, you are the enemy, right?

So first it was the Commies, now the Muslims... When will we ever learn...?

Image

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:20 pm
by Ajatashatru
Alex123 wrote:
SamKR wrote:When using or supporting violence we may think that we are defending the Buddha Dhamma.
If Buddha Dhamma is not protected (by government, army. Not by Bhikkhus), then darkness will prevail. Life sucks. The strongest survive.

The Buddha didn't live in the time when there were aggressive religions who would like to convert, by fire and sword if neccery all infidels.
So He wasn't teaching this much.

Also, what were his views on slavery?
On rule of Kings?
On torture and capital punishment by the King?
Indeed, the greatest Buddhist ruler Samrat Ashoka did not disband his huge army after embracing the Dhamma.

Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:21 pm
by Ajatashatru
Dan74 wrote:So the Rakhine=Mogul Invaders=Osama Bin Laden? Just because you are Muslim, you are the enemy, right?

So first it was the Commies, now the Muslims... When will we ever learn...?

Image
Correction, Rakhine are a Buddhist ethnic group. Its the Rohingyas who are the Muslims.