Becoming
Re: Becoming
I've added more of his talk to the quote.
Re: Becoming
Based on current English translations, I can't find "direct" sutta support either.porpoise wrote:Jason, it sounds like you're familiar with Thanissaro's ideas, so could you say briefly what evidence he provides to support the assertion that becoming means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience? I can't see any support for this idea in sutta descriptions of dependent origination, so presumably this relates to the use of bhava in other contexts?
I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Becoming
As some suggested before, I also translate it as "existence". Existence as in the usual interpretation. That makes it all a lot clearer, at least to me. Then again, I don't think dependent origination is meant to explain some moment-to-moment process, so I don't need to go into troubles finding another translation. Now simply, as long as there is craving, there will be new existence.
Re: Becoming
One teacher told me that becoming means "being a person who experiences something."
Do Good, Avoid Evil, Purify the Mind.
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Re: Becoming
The difficulty I still have with this interpretation is that it depends on birth and death being psychological ( mental ). But in the suttas birth and death are clearly described in physical terms - which logically means that bhava ( their condition ) is a process with both physical and mental aspects, not just a mental process.Aloka wrote:I've added more of his talk to the quote.
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Re: Becoming
I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Becoming
Right on, porpoise. To each their own.porpoise wrote:I don't think bhava is a view, I think it's the result of a view - ultimately ignorance in the context of DO.SDC wrote:I think you are asking Jason something separate but just to clarify, I said bhāva is NOT merely an identity view, it is an "I exist in a world" view.
I think "becoming" is a good translation for bhava because it gives the sense of a dynamic process, but the suttas strongly suggest it has both physical and mental aspects.
Perhaps we could venture into a discussion of the entire PS at a later date.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: Becoming
Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)
(I have still not read the book)
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Re: Becoming
Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Becoming
Yes, I believe bhavana is derived from bhava. Bhavana has the meaning of developing or producing mental states, which appears to support the translation of bhava as "becoming" - though as a nidana bhava seems to have a more specific meaning, as described in MN9 and SN12.2.polarbuddha101 wrote:Interesting connection, I know bhavana means cultivation which is a process of change and growth, perhaps that would lend some credence to the idea of bhava meaning becoming since the english word also signifies a state of change. Alternatively, one could just read the suttas with both translations in mind, i.e. existence and becoming.lojong1 wrote:Becoming/bhava and the bhavana of let's say anapanasati bhavana or metta bhavana...is this the same idea?
(I have still not read the book)
Buddha save me from new-agers!