dhamma follower wrote: tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: . . . it is the panna cetasika it self which is cultivated gradually by its own conditions . . .
The logic of what you are presenting here is that the only way one can become awakened is by first being awakened, and there is not anything one can do about it.
Fortunately, that is not what the Buddha what the taught.
The logic here is that without the Buddha, no enlightenment possible. Hearing the Dhamma he taught followed by proper understanding, again and again, that is how the Path is cultivated.
Only partly true. What you are missing, which seriously undermines your position, is that the Buddha outlined a way of putting into practice what he taught. It is not just a matter of repeatedly hearing the Dhamma; rather, it was and is, as been clearly and repeatedly shown using the suttas, a matter of putting into practice, by choice, what the Buddha taught.
As we know, what is called a person is only rupa, citta and cetasika. Only panna can actually be said to perform the function of "cultivating the path". Whenever panna arises, other wholesome factor such as right concentration, right effort, right thinking arise too.
Again, you illustrate the passive path, which is not what the Buddha taught and which essentially argues the nonsensical position the only way you can become awakened is by being awakened and there is not a thing one can choose to do that will facilitate that awakening.
Cetana (volition), or chanda (wish-to-do) are not factors of the Path. Whether they are wholesome or unwholesome depends on other accompanied mental factors. Similarly, concentration can bi right or wrong, depending on other cetasikas.
The suttas point out a very different point of view: A. VI 63: Volition
[cetanaa; intention, volition, choice], Monks, is what I call kamma
[action], and SN I, 38: This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
So when you maintain that there can be a path out of suffering which should be cultivated, I totally agree.
Actually, you don't agree. You have just argued, contrary to the suttas, that there is no action/choice, kamma, involved in ones practice.
Cetana can not condition sati-sampajana to arise, as we have agreed.
We have not agreed. What I stated is that by one's actions one can cultivate the conditions for the arising of sati-sampajañña
And right understanding at the beginning is intellectual, it can later condition the moment of direct understanding when it becomes firm and powerful enough.
However, the Buddha taught more than just an intellectual right understanding. He taught a way of putting that right understanding into practice. He certainly did not teach the incredibly passive -- do nothing -- approach you are advocating.
When you listen to the Dhamma and have right understanding of how all dhammas are beyond control, it can give rise to many moments of wholesomeness.
The problem is that, by making dhammas beyond our control, you are reifying dhammas, giving them attabhava. The point of the Buddha's path of practice is that dhammas can be deliberately conditioned by our choices and understandings, which is why the Buddha taught pariyatti/learning and patipatti/practice -- the Eightfold Path of learning the Dhamma, of meditation and of sila as active practices, not just a passive listening.
The emphasis on this impossibility to do something about it might appear to be a passive stance, but actually passive or active do not really apply, because there's no one to be passive or active about the Path, only understanding can make it grow.
The problem is that for you, as has been clearly shown by using the Buddha Word that your position is, thankfully, simply wrong.