what gets reborn

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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badscooter
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what gets reborn

Post by badscooter » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:51 pm

If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Polar Bear
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:52 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Consciousness is the what. Although it is not one consciousness but rather one moment or event of consciousness conditions the next. However, consciousness is not self because it is impermanent and unsatisfactory. If consciousness were self then self would arise and pass away thousands of times a day.

EDIT: Craving is the sustenance for consciousness to continue and kamma provides the field or range of possibilities for consciousness to re-arise in some other realm. Not saying I believe all that just that if you read the suttas this is what they point to.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Polar Bear
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 am

Some suttas to read:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't be confused like Sati the Fisherman's son though:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You may also be interested in reading the Paradox of Becoming:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... coming.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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SDC
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
I heard a monk explain death and rebirth by comparing it to faxing a document.

Is the document that was sent from one machine identical to the one that was received in the other? Yes.

But is the document that was received the one that was sent? No.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:25 am

SDC wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
I heard a monk explain death and rebirth by comparing it to faxing a document.

Is the document that was sent from one machine identical to the one that was received in the other? Yes.

But is the document that was received the one that was sent? No.
Another way to think of it is a billiard ball hitting another ball - nothing is transferred except direction and speed.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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SDC
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Another way to think of it is a billiard ball hitting another ball - nothing is transferred except direction and speed.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nice. I like that one.

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m0rl0ck
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:21 am

Why assume that something of individual consciousness cant extend over multiple physical lifetimes? Where does your consciousness go when you sleep? What if you slept permanently, as whom would you awaken?
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

nibbuti
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by nibbuti » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:36 am

Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?
Hi Billy. No 'candles', 'balls', 'streams' and personalities. It is only ignorance and desire that actually is born again and dies. More thorough explanation here.

:redherring:

plwk
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by plwk » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:56 am

what actually is reborn at death???????
In the words of someone infamous, (depends on who you're asking...), just this: neurosis

pegembara
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by pegembara » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:04 am

“He who is reborn, Nāgasena, is he the same person or another?”
“Neither the same nor another.”

“What is it, Nāgasena, that is reborn?”
“Mind and matter.”

“Is it this very mind and matter that is reborn?”
“No, it is not, but by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”

“Give me an illustration.”
“It is like a fire that a man might kindle and, having warmed himself, he might leave it burning and go away. Then if that fire were to set light to another man’s field and the owner were to seize him and accuse him before the king, and he were to say, ‘Your majesty, I did not set this man’s field on fire. The fire that I left burning was different to that which burnt his field. I am not guilty.’ Would he deserve punishment?”

“Indeed, yes, because whatever he might say the latter fire resulted from the former one.”
“Just so, O king, by this mind and matter deeds are done and because of those deeds another mind and matter is reborn; but that mind and matter is not thereby released from the results of its previous deeds.”

Milindapanha
In fact rebirth may not be accurate. Every moment there is an arising or birth followed by death/cessation. So there is birth/death/birth/death etc. There is no thing to be re-born or no re anything.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Raitanator
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by Raitanator » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:56 am

The falsely existing ego, which is labelled as ignorance in twelve nidanas. When we realise experiantally that it was like a dream, then there's nothing to reborn anymore. I guess.

What do you guys think?

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badscooter
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by badscooter » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:29 pm

so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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SDC
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:48 pm

Billymac29 wrote:so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?
Sort of...I guess (this is mere speculation)...what is happening here will continue to happen somewhere else.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:56 pm

Billymac29 wrote:so if i die... say something goes to a ghost realm or animal realm.. its not "me" going anywhere but my desires and cravings? or is it my conscious?
But it's not "you" here right now. There is no "you"; there's just a process. That process continues. There will be experience, and on the conventional level, you might say that "you" experience it, but in reality there's only the five aggregates, dying and being reborn every moment.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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SDC
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Re: what gets reborn

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:04 pm

LY with the evil post count :tongue:

EDIT - HA! and mine's 555

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