on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

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SDC
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.

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tiltbillings
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:41 pm

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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SDC
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
:tongue: What's the problem with a little digital masochism here and there?

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Ben
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
And some people might think poking oneself with pointy sticks is fun.
I did that once.
I was trying to distract myself from something far more painful.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Cittasanto
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:14 am

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I did that once.
I was trying to distract myself from something far more painful.
It is fun IMO!
my preference is wood as you all may remember?!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:16 am

But may I suggest if some form of warning label is seen as warranted that is is just made part of the terms of service?!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:17 am

Greetings,

[please note: this isn't pointed at anyone in particular...]

If people like a particular discussion, they can read or participate as they wish. If people don't like a particular discussion, they can opt out of it. I've never really understood how that's a problem, or why its worth complaining about... it is simply the nature of the world isn't it?

Not everyone is interested in the same things and not everyone sees things the same way, so it kinda goes without saying that different people will be able to find different positives and negatives in certain discussions. To me, it's actually the act of complaining about the facts that not everyone sees things exactly like us or behaves according to our personal ideals, which is the most unproductive thing of all. It is what it is, and we cannot control the universe, so why place the burden of one's happiness and contentedness at the feet of others? Why say, "I cannot be content unless you change" - when one could just strive to be content! Do not allow the metta recitation of "may I be able to protect my own happiness" to be spoken in vain.

As Ghandi said, "be the change you want to see in the world". To paraphrase some modern Theravada teachers... "If you can fix it, fix it - if you can't, what good comes of worrying about it?". Or as the Buddha said, "Mind is the forerunner of all dhammas"... so stand up and own it yourself - man up (or woman up, as applicable) and be awesome rather than be the victim. You can cover the world in carpet, or you can learn to wear shoes. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:08 am

Very True, Retro,

It's certainly a good idea to ignore things that one finds or uninteresting or not helpful.

However, it can be difficult to maintain a good discussion when the conversation is interrupted by negative comments. I think that this is behind some of the concerns expressed here and other threads.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:20 am

SDC wrote: :tongue: What's the problem with a little digital masochism here and there?
The problem is this: If you begin to not only enjoy your digital masochism, but relish it - you'll end up developing self-loathing and the need to disclose your wicked ways to us, most probably on the masturbation thread. And if I have to read another post in those threads my eyes will bleed.
So please, whatever you do with your fingers, please keep it to yourself!
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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SDC
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:25 am

Ben wrote:
SDC wrote: :tongue: What's the problem with a little digital masochism here and there?
The problem is this: If you begin to not only enjoy your digital masochism, but relish it - you'll end up developing self-loathing and the need to disclose your wicked ways to us, most probably on the masturbation thread. And if I have to read another post in those threads my eyes will bleed.
So please, whatever you do with your fingers, please keep it to yourself!
with metta,

Ben
Jeez, Ben. I thought my sarcasm was pretty blatant. You must've been dying to get that one off your chest!

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:25 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
Actually, the exchanges with our Catholic visitor (it was a not a dialogue, given that he really refused to meaningfully engage the counter arguments) were very interesting on any number of levels and actually very useful, which can be the case with some of the more difficult exchanges we have here, in that such exchanges can draw out interesting points, challenging one to refine and rethink one's positions on things. One of the things our Catholic visitor did for us was to present just how far the Dhamma can be twisted to fit a point of view that is really not in line with the central tenets of the Buddha's teachings, which is also one of the reasons I opted to challenge his arguments and to see how far he would go with what he was saying. On a personal level, I find it interesting to rise to the challenge of responding to that sort of distortion of the Dhamma. It is a sometime frustrating when the other refuses to actually engage the counter arguments, but that, of course, only serves to undermine what they are saying, and admittedly there is also the pleasure of crafting a carefully reasoned response.

So, a begrudging nod to our Catholic visitor.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:28 am

SDC wrote:
Ben wrote:
SDC wrote: :tongue: What's the problem with a little digital masochism here and there?
The problem is this: If you begin to not only enjoy your digital masochism, but relish it - you'll end up developing self-loathing and the need to disclose your wicked ways to us, most probably on the masturbation thread. And if I have to read another post in those threads my eyes will bleed.
So please, whatever you do with your fingers, please keep it to yourself!
with metta,

Ben
Damn, Ben. I thought my sarcasm was pretty blatant. You must've been dying to get that one off your chest!
Its ok SDC, I got your sarcasm, hence my sargasm!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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SDC
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:29 am

Ben wrote:
SDC wrote:Damn, Ben. I thought my sarcasm was pretty blatant. You must've been dying to get that one off your chest!
Its ok SDC, I got your sarcasm, hence my sargasm!
For the win!

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SDC
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is, if one likes a Roman Catholic subsumptive approach to the Dhamma that ignores and dismisses any Buddhist counter to what he was saying.
Exactly, and we all got wrapped up in it for those few days. I thought it was fun.
Actually, the exchanges with our Catholic visitor (it was a not a dialogue, given that he really refused to meaningfully engage the counter arguments) were very interesting on any number of levels and actually very useful, which can be the case with some of the more difficult exchanges we have here, in that such exchanges can draw out interesting points, challenging one to refine and rethink one's positions on things. One of the things our Catholic visitor did for us was to present just how far the Dhamma can be twisted to fit a point of view that is really not in line with the central tenets of the Buddha's teachings, which is also one of the reasons I opted to challenge his arguments and to see how far he would go with what he was saying. On a personal level, I find it interesting to rise to the challenge of responding to that sort of distortion of the Dhamma. It is a sometime frustrating when the other refuses to actually engage the counter arguments, but that, of course, only serves to undermine what they are saying, and admittedly there is also the pleasure of crafting a carefully reasoned response.

So, a begrudging nod to our Catholic visitor.
Very true.

alan...
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Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Post by alan... » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

[please note: this isn't pointed at anyone in particular...]

If people like a particular discussion, they can read or participate as they wish. If people don't like a particular discussion, they can opt out of it. I've never really understood how that's a problem, or why its worth complaining about... it is simply the nature of the world isn't it?

Not everyone is interested in the same things and not everyone sees things the same way, so it kinda goes without saying that different people will be able to find different positives and negatives in certain discussions. To me, it's actually the act of complaining about the facts that not everyone sees things exactly like us or behaves according to our personal ideals, which is the most unproductive thing of all. It is what it is, and we cannot control the universe, so why place the burden of one's happiness and contentedness at the feet of others? Why say, "I cannot be content unless you change" - when one could just strive to be content! Do not allow the metta recitation of "may I be able to protect my own happiness" to be spoken in vain.

As Ghandi said, "be the change you want to see in the world". To paraphrase some modern Theravada teachers... "If you can fix it, fix it - if you can't, what good comes of worrying about it?". Or as the Buddha said, "Mind is the forerunner of all dhammas"... so stand up and own it yourself - man up (or woman up, as applicable) and be awesome rather than be the victim. You can cover the world in carpet, or you can learn to wear shoes. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
i believe you're saying that if one doesn't want to learn about how the buddha may not have existed, dhamma written by random people, etc. they can simply not read about it and not talk about it? if so, read on. if that's not what you're saying then the following is totally pointless lol!

people may read about something simply because it's there and it's interesting. if it strongly points to the buddha being myth and what not then that's what they'll think. it may not even be a big drama for them, they may just say "huh, now i know. guess i'll forget this stuff then."

even if it is a big drama, sometimes it's hard to stop reading something that is information you do not want to know and it would be good if there was an even contrast readily available. and then there's many who are simply new to buddhism, know nothing about it and will just read about how it's all probably lost in time and there's strong evidence buddha was myth and suttas are anonymous, shrug, and say "oh well never mind, i thought i heard this stuff was pretty legit but it sounds like every other mythology now." they never would even consider "perhaps i should opt out of this discussion." they don't even worry about the issue as they know so little, then they just read casually with out any deep stake in either side, get an info dump on how it's myth and unknown and write it off.

they may then look quickly to see if there's any obvious refutation of the idea that buddha was a myth, etc. find none, and leave. the arguments on here against the buddha and authorship of the dhamma are very convincing and well written and some kind of obvious counter arguments would be helpful all around. again, without the arguments against, we would be in la la land, and eventually space, they are necessary to keep things grounded. i'm not saying the debunking is wrong by any means. balance is what i'm seeking.

at the very least a faq or written info sheet on how the dhamma does not depend on the buddha or authenticity of the suttas would be useful, i don't think anyone on here would argue with that. one that promotes ideas about his existence and authenticity of the suttas would be another story, i think it's a good idea but i could see debate against it.

many dhamma sites already have this. especially vipassana stuff, frequently i see things stating that anyone can practice regardless of any inclinations toward buddhism. basically they have a little paragraph that sums up something like (obviously playfully paraphrased): it works! it's a method that stands on nothing but it's own ability to reach a goal without any reliance on any figures. it is for literally everyone.

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