Buddhism and religion

[Ceisiwr]

Hey Pink

First of all good topic

- What does the _concept_ of religion mean to you personally?

An institute of rites and ritual aimed at reaching or pleasing something metaphysical coming from conditioning, wish thinking, false concept of morals or false concept of conditionality and so, for the most part, superstitious in nature. Something that for the most part is removed from this world and focuses on something beyond. I see it as a set of beliefs that have no inherent meaning anymore other than having the ability to comfort ( and inspire art and poetry etc). Something that stands at odds with how we think, an offering of an extraordinary "truth" but offering no evidence in support and so a system of non-thinking

How does the _idea_ of religion itself make you feel?

To me personally religion means nothing. I dont hate or like religion it just doesnt have any inherent meaning to me, like football . I do feel sad for people though when i see them being twisted by absurd dogma or when that religious dogma turns evil and begins to cost lives

- How familiar are you with the history and origin of the idea of religion (the concept, not the phenomenon)?

I did write a paragraph here but realized that it was all speculation and guess work. I dont think we can know what concept our ancestors had, if they had the concept of religion as we have or not

- Why do you choose to engage with Buddhism as a religion rather than just as a body of valuable wisdom and practices?

I dont, to me it is valuable wisdom and practice

- For you personally, what elements of Buddhism need to be viewed through the lens of "religion"?

Nothing

- Is meditation inherently a religious activity?

No

- Is lovingkindness inherently a religious activity?

No

- Is generosity inherently a religious activity?

No

- Is compassion inherently a religious activity?

No

- Is death contemplation inherently a religious activity?

No

- Is a religious perspective necessary to understand and practice sila?

No

- Is a religious perspective necessary to understand kamma?

I dont know all there is about kamma but i say no

- Is the experience of clarity (both incremental and ultimate) a religious experience?

No

- Are the various mind-states (or stages) encountered throughout our meditation practice religious experiences?

No

- If you hold a belief in rebirth: Is a religious perspective necessary in order to have a positive rebirth experience upon death of the body?

N/A


Metta

[Ceisiwr]

Hey tilt

You say something interesting here

The other thing is that humans want transcendence

But isnt this wish thinking. I could want a lot of things, doesnt mean they are true or ritual in their name is worth while. Also why does transcendence have to invoke the supernatural? (which all religions/religious thought does)


Metta

[tiltbillings]

The other thing is that humans want transcendence

But isnt this wish thinking. I could want a lot of things, doesnt mean they are true or ritual in their name is worth while

Whether or not is wishful thinking or even true is beside the point.

[Ceisiwr]

The other thing is that humans want transcendence

But isnt this wish thinking. I could want a lot of things, doesnt mean they are true or ritual in their name is worth while

Whether or not is wishful thinking or even true is beside the point.

But isnt it the point? Following wish thinking doesnt help people face reality and if it is wish thinking then it may or not be true and needs to be weighed against evidence to decide if its logical to accept and act on, if there is no evidence at all and its just a wish then why organize something so massive around it since your probably just deluding yourself and others because of your own wish for reality to be a certain way (not you personally)

[Ben]

Hi Craig

The other thing is that humans want transcendence

But isnt this wish thinking. I could want a lot of things, doesnt mean they are true or ritual in their name is worth while

Whether or not is wishful thinking or even true is beside the point.

Not necessarily. One could interpret your comment to mean that you deny transcendence. If this is your attitude then i can assure you that it is not the case.
I can't speak for the availability of the transcendent experience available via other religions or spiritual practices, but its certainly available to the sincere practitioner within Buddhism. But, to quote Rachel Hunter in an often quoted shampoo commercial It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
Metta

Ben

[Ceisiwr]

Howdy Ben

Not necessarily. One could interpret your comment to mean that you deny transcendence. If this is your attitude then i can assure you that it is not the case.
I can't speak for the availability of the transcendent experience available via other religions or spiritual practices, but its certainly available to the sincere practitioner within Buddhism. But, to quote Rachel Hunter in an often quoted shampoo commercial It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
Metta

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural. For example I can see the images from deep space and look at all those billions of stars and feel transcendent. That doesnt involve supernatural but natural

[Ben]

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural.

I didnt say it did

[Ceisiwr]

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural.

I didnt say it did

So if we can experience the transcendent and spirituality while having a solid moral outlook without adhering to the supernatural and/or wish thinking belief why have religion which invloves the transcendent being supernatural (or view that the highest transcendent is) and unsupported belief in that supernatural transcendence?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Craig,

So if we can experience the transcendent and spirituality while having a solid moral outlook without adhering to the supernatural and/or wish thinking belief why have religion?

Because it helps as a transforming agent. The beliefs themselves don't have any supernatural powers, but because of the way in which holding those beliefs and living in accordance with them impacts mindstates, behaviours and attitudes, compared to the status quo. I can see how living a Buddhist life has impacted my life for the better, in its capacity as a transforming agent... no "supernatural" required.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

But isnt it the point? Following wish thinking doesnt help people face reality and if it is wish thinking then it may or not be true and needs to be weighed against evidence to decide if its logical to accept and act on, if there is no evidence at all and its just a wish then why organize something so massive around it since your probably just deluding yourself and others because of your own wish for reality to be a certain way (not you personally)

You are agruing something entirely other than the basic question of how to define religion.

[Ceisiwr]

But isnt it the point? Following wish thinking doesnt help people face reality and if it is wish thinking then it may or not be true and needs to be weighed against evidence to decide if its logical to accept and act on, if there is no evidence at all and its just a wish then why organize something so massive around it since your probably just deluding yourself and others because of your own wish for reality to be a certain way (not you personally)

You are agruing something entirely other than the basic question of how to define religion.

I agree its gettting to off topic

[tiltbillings]

Howdy Ben

Not necessarily. One could interpret your comment to mean that you deny transcendence. If this is your attitude then i can assure you that it is not the case.
I can't speak for the availability of the transcendent experience available via other religions or spiritual practices, but its certainly available to the sincere practitioner within Buddhism. But, to quote Rachel Hunter in an often quoted shampoo commercial It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
Metta

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural. For example I can see the images from deep space and look at all those billions of stars and feel transcendent. That doesnt involve supernatural but natural

It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.

[Ceisiwr]

It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.

Once again this comes down to how one defines religion. What i feel looking at those stars i dont call religious but spiritual or transcendent. Feelings of awe and humility in face of the beauty and scope of nature but not removed from nature or "faith" based


Religion i defined in my answer to pinks original questions

An institute of rites and ritual aimed at reaching or pleasing something metaphysical coming from conditioning, wish thinking, false concept of morals or false concept of conditionality and so, for the most part, superstitious in nature. Something that for the most part is removed from this world and focuses on something beyond. I see it as a set of beliefs that have no inherent meaning anymore other than having the ability to comfort ( and inspire art and poetry etc). Something that stands at odds with how we think, an offering of an extraordinary "truth" but offering no evidence in support and so a system of non-thinking

with that in mind i dont define those feelings as religious at all


metta

[Ben]

Hi Craig

I am reminded of a conversation with a chaplain at a christian school I worked at a couple of years ago. He told me, eventually, that his experience of god is a feeling. I was gobsmacked.

I just want to point out that transcendence is not vedana (feeling/sensation). Transcendence manifests when certain cittas arise. Certainly, while we work towards liberation on the path, vedanas co-arise with cittas. However, when we become sotapanna, and again when we experience the phala and magga cittas associated with sakadagami, anagami and arahatta, when Nibbana becomes the object of those cittas, vedanas are not present for the duration of those expereinces.

While we are veering off-topic it was good to explore this aspect of transcendence.
Metta

Ben

[tiltbillings]

It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.

Once again this comes down to how one defines religion. What i feel looking at those stars i dont call religious but spiritual or transcendent. I feeling of awe and humility in face of the beauty of nature but not removed from nature or "faith" based

Good heavens! You are having a religious experience, which I have heard others describe much the same thing and call it religious. Religion on a pertsonal level does not need to be limited to the very narrow defintion you quote below.

Religion i defined in my answer to pinks original questions

An institute of rites and ritual aimed at reaching or pleasing something metaphysical coming from conditioning, wish thinking, false concept of morals or false concept of conditionality and so, for the most part, superstitious in nature. Something that for the most part is removed from this world and focuses on something beyond. I see it as a set of beliefs that have no inherent meaning anymore other than having the ability to comfort ( and inspire art and poetry etc). Something that stands at odds with how we think, an offering of an extraordinary "truth" but offering no evidence in support and so a system of non-thinking

with that in mind i dont define those feelings as religious at all


metta

PT's definition seems a bit limited.