The danger of intolerance

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pink_trike
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by pink_trike » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:Also, keep in mind that the point of this thread is the question of tolerance and intolerance towards religion, not the critique of religion.
How can they realistically be separated?
Vision is Mind
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Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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tiltbillings
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:52 am

I think one can discuss the dangers of intolerance towards religion without entering into a full blown attack on religion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by pink_trike » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:I think one can discuss the dangers of intolerance towards religion without entering into a full blown attack on religion.
There are both religious and non-religious Buddhists. How would you frame a dialogue between the two groups, specifically about the religious element of Buddhism, so that no one feels attacked? It seems that it is a touchy subject so let's discuss how the topic can productively discussed without reactivity.

[edited not knowing that it was being replied to as I edited].
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:09 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I think one can discuss the dangers of intolerance towards religion without entering into a full blown attack on religion.
There are both religious and non-religious Buddhists. How would you frame a dialogue between the two groups, specifically about the religious element of Buddhism, so that no one feels attacked?

That is the challenge.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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clw_uk
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by clw_uk » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:14 am

Jechbi and others

I agree that intolerance of religion is bad just as intolerance of most things is negative however thats not what was happening on this site. For example No doubt you dont believe in osiris because of your rationality and logic has lead you to conclude that he most likely doesnt exsist and belief in him or practice of the religion he is assoctiated with is irrational and not needed. You did this without being intolerant you just examined it, thats all im doing but including the modern day religions as well (and non-theistic ones as well as theistic)

Now i am sorry if i upset you or anyone else thats not my intent but i do feel its an important discussion to have


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Last edited by clw_uk on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:22 am

clw_uk wrote:Jechbi and others

I agree that intolerance of religion is bad just as intolerance of most things is negative however thats not what was happening on this site.

Except if others feel that it is happening, you cannot say that it is not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by clw_uk » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:29 am

Hey tilt
Except if others feel that it is happening, you cannot say that it is not.
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all. Was some of the wording i used not to good and taken the wrong way, sure maybe so but my intent wasnt to cause harm or to come accross as intolerant and i apologize again if i have done so

:group:


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Aloka
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by Aloka » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:31 am

Regarding the thread with comments about Tibetan Buddhism, I posted what I thought was a very polite response expressing my sadness to see these remarks, as I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism myself. However the whole thread disappeared soon afterwards.

Dazzle

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tiltbillings
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:38 am

No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all.
Your intention may have been one thing, but via probale unskillfullness some may have felt otherwise, and that is their perception, in effect, their reality. There needs to be a bit more of a nuanced appreciation of what is being said, how it said, and the consequences of that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by pink_trike » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all.
Your intention may have been one thing, but via probale unskillfullness some may have felt otherwise, and that is their perception, in effect, their reality. There needs to be a bit more of a nuanced appreciation of what is being said, how it said, and the consequences of that.
...in writing and reading, from everyone involved in the discussion no matter what their belief.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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clw_uk
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by clw_uk » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all.
Your intention may have been one thing, but via probale unskillfullness some may have felt otherwise, and that is their perception, in effect, their reality. There needs to be a bit more of a nuanced appreciation of what is being said, how it said, and the consequences of that.
I agree we all need to do this


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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:45 am

Dazzlebling wrote:Regarding the thread with comments about Tibetan Buddhism, I posted what I thought was a very polite response expressing my sadness to see these remarks, as I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism myself. However the whole thread disappeared soon afterwards.

Dazzle
It was disappeared because it was seen to be becoming hurtful to some and it was going in a tail biting circle of negativity. If you wish, it can be brought back. We moderators are not (yet) perfect, so it may be that we do not always handle tough situations in the best manner. We try, however.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:46 am

...from all sides of the discussion.
Certainly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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pink_trike
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by pink_trike » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dazzlebling wrote:Regarding the thread with comments about Tibetan Buddhism, I posted what I thought was a very polite response expressing my sadness to see these remarks, as I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism myself. However the whole thread disappeared soon afterwards.

Dazzle
It was disappeared because it was seen to be becoming hurtful to some and it was going in a tail biting circle of negativity. If you wish, it can be brought back. We moderators are not (yet) perfect, so it may be that we do not always handle tough situations in the best manner. We try, however.
And you guys do a darned good job.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Ben
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Re: The danger of intolerance

Post by Ben » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:17 am

Hi all

A couple of comments. I've said privately to some members that i doubted whether Dhamma Wheel was an appropriate forum for the kinds of discussions that have been happening of late. To date, I maintain what i said in that I haven't seen any valid criticism, or any real criticism in the true sense of the word. Instead, we have comments being made that are at times have been quite inflamatory and provocative. And given that this is a Buddhist forum devoted to the Theravada, such comments have the effect of 'playing to the crowd'. Most of us are Buddhist of some denomination and many of us probably have less than ideal experiences of living in Christian dominated cultures. So what invariably happens is that threads that purport to 'critique' Mahayana, Vajrayana, Christianity or Islam become a vehicle for the expression of personal prejudices and predelictons. As people get involved and contribute to such a discussion there is the triggering of kilesas and when the next person expresses their point of view (however well-informed it may appear to be), the process continues. Little real learning goes on as we're just all swimming in the collective mental cesspit. (apologies for the image). Until we become ariyan, we all suffer from conceit and our view is seriously polluted and distorted by our own negativities. I believe we should all be extremely vigilant, there is no limit to the variations of the manifestations of our own defilements.

Frankly comments that alude to DW being oppressive are downright unhelpful. My colleagues and I have expended no small effort in ensuring Dhamma Wheel doesn't become yet another group-think ghetto. Please consider for a minute how oppressive some comments may appear to others looking into Dhamma Wheel. People, who maybe christian, vajrayanist, mahayanist or muslim who may have a genuine interest in the Theravada. Can you put yourselves in their shoes? Dhamma Wheel should be a place where anyone irrespective of their religious (or non-religious) affiliation should feel comfortable and welcomed. And from reports that I have received, that hasn't been happening here.

As i said to another, there is so much that is beautiful and wonderful about the Dhamma and worthy of discussion. Why waste our time discussing the perceived faults of another? The real deal, the real game, is right here within our own one-fathom-long frame. We have a wonderful opportunity here at Dhamma Wheel, lets use it for our own liberation, and also for the benefit of the many, for the welfare of all.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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