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8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:07 pm
by barcsimalsi
It is from maha-parinibbana sutta :
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eight Causes of Earthquakes

12. And the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, and respectfully greeting him, sat down at one side. Then he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Marvellous it is indeed, and most wonderful! The earth shakes mightily, tremendously! Dreadful and astonishing it is how the thunders roll across the heavens! What could be the reason, what the cause, that so mighty an earthquake should arise?"

13. Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight?

14. "This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.
15. "Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

16-21. "Again, Ananda, when the Bodhisatta departs from the Tusita realm and descends into his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Bodhisatta comes out from his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment; when the Tathagata sets rolling the excellent Wheel of the Dhamma; when the Tathagata renounces his will to live on; and when the Tathagata comes to pass away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains — then, too, Ananda, this great earth trembles, quivers, and shakes.

"These, Ananda, are the eight reasons, the eight causes for a great earthquake to arise. [27]
Is there any hidden meaning to this part of sutta?
What about the tectonics plate reasoning?

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:12 pm
by LonesomeYogurt
The first bit, with the agitation of liquid leading to the disturbance of the Earth, is probably just a pre-scientific understanding of tectonic plate movement and other naturally-caused tremors.

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:26 pm
by Bhikkhu Pesala
The terms earth, water, fire, and air, refer to the four elements — solidity, fluidity, temperature, and motion.

The air element is not just wind, but any kind of elemental pressure or motion. (Gastric wind, whether it comes up or goes down, is also the air element). The water element is not just water, but also molten rock or molten iron — even ice contains the fluid element, which is why glaciers flow.

Earthquakes occur due to the movement of magma (which is water element), forced up by pressure (air element). Cohesion is a quality of water too, when cohesion is weak faults start to slide.

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:47 pm
by bodom
Every once in a while this question will come up about the accuracy of this statement by the Buddha, but it's really quite simple: The Buddha was an expert on suffering and the way of ending suffering. He was not a geologist. He was merely expressing the commonly held scientific beliefs about the cause of earthquakes 2600 years ago. If you want to know how to be free of all stress and suffering then the Buddha and his Dhamma are where you need to turn. If you want to know about the cause of earthquakes then ask a geologist or an expert in that field.

:anjali:

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:14 pm
by daverupa
My understanding of these sorts of things in the Nikayas is had by understanding the effect this sort of thing had on those who listened to it when it was originally composed.

Basically, I see it as a particular sort of religious text; it can have an allegorical or otherwise symbolic meaning, & otherwise potentially give rise (esp. in its original contexts) to gladdening the mind in some rapturous way. A literal reading would actually be a misunderstanding, sort of like treating a television sitcom like a reality show.

The scientific understanding of these phenomena is something very modern; the original composers and consumers of these sorts of texts were not at all concerned with scientific accuracy, as it wasn't even on their thought horizon.

These descriptions aren't making physical or metaphysical claims, they are housing their religious texts in a certain narrative environment for various community-oriented reasons.

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:10 pm
by DAWN
It's funny because my mother say that 2 weeks after my birth in the town where i was burn ( in Bulgaria) there is un earth quake that arise.. :thinking:

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:27 pm
by barcsimalsi
Actually, i was also worrying about each time a Buddha was born or died, people got killed in earthquakes.
Thanks for all the reply and i am going to settle with this one.
daverupa wrote: These descriptions aren't making physical or metaphysical claims, they are housing their religious texts in a certain narrative environment for various community-oriented reasons.

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:31 pm
by Buckwheat
For engineers, another word for pressure is "stress". The crust is agitated and relieves the stress by quaking. The other seven reasons are just illustrating the ground-shaking importance of enlightenment. Hyperbole? Maybe, but it makes a stirring point.

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:07 am
by whynotme
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The terms earth, water, fire, and air, refer to the four elements — solidity, fluidity, temperature, and motion.

The air element is not just wind, but any kind of elemental pressure or motion. (Gastric wind, whether it comes up or goes down, is also the air element). The water element is not just water, but also molten rock or molten iron — even ice contains the fluid element, which is why glaciers flow.

Earthquakes occur due to the movement of magma (which is water element), forced up by pressure (air element). Cohesion is a quality of water too, when cohesion is weak faults start to slide.
I also see the four elements similar to four normal states of the matter, solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Maybe, just maybe they see them with divine eye and use those words to describe them for people 2500 years ago to understand

Regards

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:35 am
by mikenz66
whynotme wrote: I also see the four elements similar to four normal states of the matter, solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Maybe, just maybe they see them with divine eye and use those words to describe them for people 2500 years ago to understand
I think that interpreting them that way would be to miss the point that the fire and air elements/properties have to do with heat, energy, and motion, which were considered to be properties of matter, not something separate.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:16 am
by whynotme
mikenz66 wrote:
whynotme wrote: I also see the four elements similar to four normal states of the matter, solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Maybe, just maybe they see them with divine eye and use those words to describe them for people 2500 years ago to understand
I think that interpreting them that way would be to miss the point that the fire and air elements/properties have to do with heat, energy, and motion, which were considered to be properties of matter, not something separate.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks
Of course that is just my opinion, and I just feel it is interesting similarity, not much important

Regards

Re: 8 causes of earthquake

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:06 pm
by Weltschmerz Buddhist
I never understood how one can pick and choose which parts are true and which parts are not of a certain religious text. Choose to interpret them another way than what is written. I think if you question one part then you need to question the entire sutra. I remember reading somewhere that when these earthquakes happen no one dies, but if a demon is brought on earth that people do die in those earthquakes, but I think this was just speculation. I believe this could be true.