Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

You prefer traductions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu or Bhikkhu Bodhi ?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
17
39%
Bhikkhu Bodhi
27
61%
 
Total votes: 44

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Re: Ven Thanissaro or Ven Bodhi's translation you prefer?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:16 pm
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:26 pm
there is supposedly a serious issue with ven bodhi's trans of this sutta, viewtopic.php?t=19658
Exactly what is the issue? Thanks
the issue has been explained to me that there is no 'seen', so thanissaros translation is superior. actually i havent sat down and figured it out for myself, maybe i should
While I often disagree with VBBs footnotes & commentaries (which are often sectarian), for me, VBBs translations are the best available (although not perfect); translated with the most intregity & lack of ulterior sectarian agenda; far superior to Thanissaro or Sujato. Thanissaro's translations are characterised by a Zen bent towards non-conceptualisation as Nibbana (eg. in MN 1) plus include other weird stuff (such as the translation 'clinging-aggregates'). As for the MN, it provides no scope for political tendencies to influence the translation. The flaws I personally percieve in VVB's translations I attribute to ignorance &/or adherence to historical linguistic norms rather than to any intentional sectarianism.
are they not clinging aggregates? mn 1 is about conceit
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Ven Thanissaro or Ven Bodhi's translation you prefer?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:44 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:49 am
the issue has been explained to me that there is no 'seen', so thanissaros translation is superior.
So arahants do not "see"? Was the Buddha visually blind?
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:49 am
are they not clinging aggregates? mn 1 is about conceit
What clings? Does the physical body cling? Does feeling cling? Does perception cling? Does mental formations cling? Does consciousness cling? Do the five aggregates engage in clinging behaviour? Or are the five aggregates things clung to? If the five aggregates are things clung to; do each of the aggregates engage in clinging or does only one of the aggregates engage in clinging behaviour? I suggest to examine 'your own' aggregates and investigate which aggregate/s engage in clinging. Kind regards :)

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm

I think Ven. Bodhi's translation of a few crucial passages does not make any sense and is making the text irrational & illogical, that it effectively redacts crucial passages that are instrumental to refuting certain (Ven. Bodhi's?) views from the Sutta Pitaka. It seems to me like he is biased.
Example is AN 10.58 in particular the 9th enumeration. I wont analyze it here because it is a lot of work and is off-topic but comparing the two translations will show how big of a difference there is;

Ven. Thanissaro;
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
Ven. Bodhi;
(9) They culminate in the deathless.
I assume that any smart person can appreciate the extent of the difference implied here and potential implications.

There is a similar problem in DN11 concerning Vinnana Anidassanam.

In general the relationship between the terms Vinnana Anidassanam, The Deathless and Nibbana needs to be explained and it needs to be explained in a way that consistently makes sense and so that it can not be refuted. Afaik there is only one way to do it and Ven. Bodhi has expressed wrong view in regards to this.

As i see it this is in no way a matter of preference, using the Ven. Bodhi's translations one can not make the Sutta Pitaka make sense because it starts contradicting itself and one will have to call Fake Sutta etc. Not to mention the relation of the conflicting positions to the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

Imo if i was to judge the not-proofread publication of Ven. Sujato's translations, some of it can not at all be defended and would constitute slander of the Tathagata.
Example is his translation of world-system as a Solar System, which appears in a very sensitive spot.

It seems to me that the translations of these Venerable Sirs are most reflective of their own interpretation of the Doctrine and what concerns Nibbana in particular in case of Ven. Bodhi.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by Zom » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:39 pm

Ven Bodhi's versions are supreme. Ven Thanissaro's eternalism terms like "unbinding" or "becoming" is a failure.

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by binocular » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:03 pm

Ven. Bodhi's translations are not that rarely more readable than Ven. Thanissaro's. But Ven. Bodhi's political stances, and esp. his stance on killing makes everything else that he says and his translations dislikeable for me.
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm
Example is AN 10.58 in particular the 9th enumeration. I wont analyze it here because it is a lot of work and is off-topic
I analyzed below in about 5 minutes.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm
but comparing the two translations will show how big of a difference there is;

Ven. Thanissaro;
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
Ven. Bodhi;
(9) They culminate in the deathless.
We have discussed this before. Both translations above were shown to be incorrect in their translating 'dhamma' as 'things' or 'phenomena'. As for "deathless footing" vs "deathless culminate", the Pali is "amatogadhā".
gādha1
neuter
firm footing (in water); firm ground.

gādha2
masculine or neuter
a hole; a refuge.
gādha1
depth; a hole, a dugout AN.ii.107 = Pp.43 (cp. Pp-a 225); Sdhp.394 (˚ṃ khaṇati). Cp. gāḷha2.

Sk. gāḷha pp. of gāh, see gāhati

gādha2
adj. passable, fordable in a˚ unfathomable, deep Pv-a.77 (= gambhīra). nt. a ford, a firm stand, firm ground, a safe place: gambhīre ˚ṃ vindati AN.v.202. ˚ṃ esati to seek the terra firma SN.i.127; similarly: ˚ṃ labhati to gain firm footing SN.i.47; ˚ṃ ajjhagā SN.iv.206; ˚ṃ labhate Ja.vi.440 (= patiṭṭhā). Cp. o˚, paṭi˚.
gādhati
to stand fast, to be on firm ground, to have a firm footing: āpo ca paṭhavī ca tejo vāyo na gādhati “the four elements have no footing DN.i.223 = SN.i.15
■ Dhamma-Vinaye gādhati “to stand fast in the Doctrine & Discipline” SN.iii.59 sq.

v. der. fr. gādha2
Formerly, Bodhi translated this as "merge".
Therefore, the question needs to be asked why VBB has translated as he has done? :shrug:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm
There is a similar problem in DN11 concerning Vinnana Anidassanam.

In general the relationship between the terms Vinnana Anidassanam, The Deathless and Nibbana needs to be explained and it needs to be explained in a way that consistently makes sense and so that it can not be refuted. Afaik there is only one way to do it and Ven. Bodhi has expressed wrong view in regards to this.
Vinnana Anidassanam is not Nibbana. We have also discussed this before. Why do you keep repeating the same old unsubstantiated ideas?
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm
The Deathless and Nibbana needs to be explained and it needs to be explained in a way that consistently makes sense and so that it can not be refuted. Afaik there is only one way to do it and Ven. Bodhi has expressed wrong view in regards to this.
The Deathless and Nibbana are essentially synonyms; as stated in many suttas, such as in SN 45.7. Regardless, when making an allegation against someone, as has been done above, it should ideally be substantiated.

I have addressed three matters you have raised yet in all three matters you have not explained let alone substantiated your allegations. Imo, this is not how to conduct a discussion. You should provide your clear view about the following:

1. Why is VBB's translation of 'gādha' incorrect?

2. What relationship does Vinnana Anidassanam have with The Deathless and Nibbana?

3. Why are The Deathless and Nibbana different and why was VBB wrong in treating these as synonyms?
47. Since the Deathless and Nibbāna are synonymous, to justify the distinction between them here, A-a identifies “the Deathless” with the Nibbāna-element with a residue left, and “Nibbāna” with the Nibbāna-element with no residue left. See Ch.IV, n.10.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238_Nyanap ... I.html#N47

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 pm
47. Since the Deathless and Nibbāna are synonymous, to justify the distinction between them here, A-a identifies “the Deathless” with the Nibbāna-element with a residue left, and “Nibbāna” with the Nibbāna-element with no residue left. See Ch.IV, n.10.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238_Nyanap ... I.html#N47
Returning to the above idea VBB presents from a Commentary; it certainly appears to have some merits.

The Pali in AN 10.58 is:
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā

nib­bā­na­pari­yosānā sabbe dhammā
Contrary to VBB's comment, the term 'pari­yosānā' appears to not have a specific relationship to the 'Nibbāna-element without residue'. For example, in MN 29 & MN 30, the term 'pari­yosānā' is used in relation to the 'Nibbāna-element with a residue':
The goal, heartwood and final end of the spiritual life is the unshakable freedom of heart.

akuppā cetovimutti — etadatthamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ, etaṃ sāraṃ etaṃ pariyosānan

MN 29 & 30
Also, 'pari­yosānā' is used in relation to The Deathless, as follows from AN 6.19 & 20:
Mendicants, when mindfulness of death is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. It culminates in the deathless and ends with the deathless.

Maraṇassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā amatogadhā amatapariyosānā

https://suttacentral.net/an6.19/en/sujato.
Therefore, I would suggest the suttas need to be examined to find use of the term 'gadhā' ('footing') with Nibbana? I imagine such usage will not be found because, while the mind can establish a footing in 'Nibbana with residue', i.e. 'The Deathless'; the mind obviously cannot take a 'footing' in the 'Nibbāna-element without residue'.

In conclusion, it appears the term 'pari­yosānā' can be used with both The Deathless & Nibbana; but the term 'gadhā' cannot be used with 'Nibbana without residue' therefore is probably never used with the singular term 'Nibbana'.

It appears the term Nibbānogadha is found in Pali dictionaries but not found in any sutta.

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:07 am
It appears the term Nibbānogadha is found in Pali dictionaries but not found in any sutta.
Looks like I was wrong above: :shock: ;)
For extinguishment is the culmination, destination, and end of the spiritual life.

Nibbānogadhañhi, rādha, brahmacariyaṃ vussati, nibbānaparāyanaṃ nibbānapariyosānan”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn23.1/en/sujato
SN 48.42 : Uṇṇābhabrāhmaṇasutta
pañhaṃ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṃ gahetuṃ. Nibbānogadhañhi, brāhmaṇa, brahmacariyaṃ vussati nibbānaparāyaṇaṃ

SN 23.1 : Mārasutta
pañhaṃ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṃ gahetuṃ. Nibbānogadhañhi, rādha, brahmacariyaṃ vussati, nibbānaparāyanaṃ

MN 44 : Cūḷavedallasutta
pañhaṃ, nāsakkhi pañhānaṃ pariyantaṃ gahetuṃ. Nibbānogadhañhi, āvuso visākha, brahmacariyaṃ, nibbānaparāyanaṃ
:candle:
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:57 pm
1. Why is VBB's translation of 'gādha' incorrect?
Returning to the above question, VBB has used different translations in different suttas. For example:
Natthinatthi kiccaṃ brāhmaṇassa
Katakicco hi brāhmaṇo;
Yāva na gādhaṃ labhati nadīsu (while he has not gained a footing in the river)
Āyūhati sabbagattebhi jantu;
Gādhañca laddhāna thale ṭhito yo (but a footing gained, standing on the ground)
Nāyūhatī pāragato hi sova.

SN 2.5
Ye suppaṭipannā te imasmiṃ dhammavinaye gādhanti.

Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn22.56
Paritto, upāli, attabhāvo gambhīre gādhaṃ na vindati. Evamevaṃ kho, upāli, yo evaṃ vadeyya: ‘ahaṃ samādhiṃ alabhamāno arañña­vana­patthāni pantāni senāsanāni paṭisevissāmī’ti, tassetaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ: ‘saṃsīdissati vā uplavissati vā’ti

A small boy does not find footing in the depths. So too, it can be expected that one who would say: "I do not gain concentration, yet I will resort to remote lodgings in forests & jungle groves' will either sink or fall away.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/an10.99
sammāsamādhiṃ bhāveti amatogadhaṃ amataparāyanaṃ amata­pari­yosānaṃ

right concentration developed has the Deathless as its ground... its destination... its final goal,

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn45.115
Therefore, it remains unclear why VBB chose to use "culminate" (instead of "merge") in his most recent translation of AN 10.58. While Sujato's translation of AN 6.19 remains in "draft", Sujato also uses "culminate". It is of note VBB was influenced by the AB group in his AN translation (example, refer to AN footnote 1801 about Brahmali & AN 8.83, which is the same teaching as AN 10.58) therefore Bhikkhu Sujato might be able to answer the question about why "gādha' is translated as "culminate". :)
Mendicants, when mindfulness of death is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. It culminates in the deathless and ends with the deathless.

maraṇassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā amatogadhā amatapariyosānā.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.19/en/sujato
I think VBB's original translation of MN 98 confirms my suspicion of influence by Bhikkhu Sujato's group. In his MN, published in 1995 (before the arising & influence of the AB group), VBB translates:
Amatogadhaṃ anuppattaṃ

Who has gained firm footing in the Deathless.

MN 98
:namaste:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am

maybe would someone give me a list of the controversial translations bhikkhu bodhi has made
not to say they are wrong just that it might be worth comparing to other translation(s)
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am
maybe would someone give me a list of the controversial translations bhikkhu bodhi has made
I can't think of too many off the top of my head & will wait for others to post examples, such as the example discussed from AN 10.58 (however, AN 10.58 is generally universally translated contrary to the explanations in other suttas & the original commentary, discussed here with support of AN 4.245 & SN 48.44 and here on SC). Its Thanissaro that has the controversial translations to me.

I already mentioned the following personal disagreeements, which are actually not particularly "controversial" (apart from kamabhava):

* MN 96 footnote 897, where VBB appears to translate a passage to mean 'reincarnation' rather than 'social/verbal designation' of caste.

* In MN 60, it appears VBB might have chosen some words from Western philosophy (such as 'nihilism') to describe certain doctrines.

* Translation 'kamabhava' as 'sense-sphere existence' (rather than 'sensual-existence').

* Influence by the Ajahn Brahm group in both SN and AN to depart from his MN and to start using terms in Dependent Origination such as 'name-form' (instead of 'mentality-materiality'), 'volitional formations' (instead of 'formations'), 'existence' (instead of 'being').

Regards :reading:

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am
maybe would someone give me a list of the controversial translations bhikkhu bodhi has made
I can't think of too many off the top of my head & will wait for others to post examples, such as the example discussed from AN 10.58 (however, AN 10.58 is generally universally translated contrary to the explanations in other suttas & the original commentary, discussed here with support of AN 4.245 & SN 48.44 and here on SC). Its Thanissaro that has the controversial translations to me.

I already mentioned the following personal disagreeements, which are actually not particularly "controversial" (apart from kamabhava):

* MN 96 footnote 897, where VBB appears to translate a passage to mean 'reincarnation' rather than 'social/verbal designation' of caste.

* In MN 60, it appears VBB might have chosen some words from Western philosophy (such as 'nihilism') to describe certain doctrines.

* Translation 'kamabhava' as 'sense-sphere existence' (rather than 'sensual-existence').

* Influence by the Ajahn Brahm group in both SN and AN to depart from his MN and to start using terms in Dependent Origination such as 'name-form' (instead of 'mentality-materiality'), 'volitional formations' (instead of 'formations'), 'existence' (instead of 'being').

Regards :reading:
Hi,
Mind explaining difference between volitional formation and formation ?
Existence and being ?
:reading:

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:37 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:00 am
Mind explaining difference between volitional formation and formation ?
A formation is not necessarily something mental; such as kaya sankhara in MN 44 or ayyu sankhara in MN 43, which are physical. Also, a formation can be anything compounded together by various constituent parts, such as a building. Importantly, some mental formations appear not related to volition, for example, a dream or hallucination. For example, when a person becomes a teenager due to hormonal & chemical changes in the physical body; that sexual lust becomes a new predominant urge is not volitional. It just happens. For example, the first time a teenage boy has a sexy dream & a nocturnal emission is not volitional. I assume 'volition' implies making some kind of decision (however unaware or unwise). While there is one sutta that defines sankhara aggregate as 'volition' ('cetana'), I think sankhara aggregate is much more diverse than mere volition. For example, ignorance must also be sankhara aggregate yet ignorance is not volition. Ignorance just is.

Therefore, when 'volitional formations' is used to describe the 2nd link, it gives the impression (to me) a deliberate act of kamma is occurring at the 2nd link (rather than a non-volitional outflow of defilement).

Importantly, the word 'sankhara' at the 2nd link of D.O. appears to be a 'plural' therefore it appears not possible to have multiple volitions in a single mind moment. I think this alone gives rise to the suspicion that "volitional formations" is a wrong translation.

Where as "formations" include multiple formations arising in a single mind moment, which can be both mental & physical. For example, if a lustful formation arises from ignorance, lust thoughts will also arise and lusting breathing will also arise; in exactly the same mind moment. One single outflow of lust from ignorance generates many different kinds of formations in a single mind moment.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:00 am
Existence and being ?
I prefer 'becoming' because existence & being have various meanings in the English language. For example, in the Pali translation below, the word 'bhava' is not found:
By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence.

SN 12.15

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:31 am

james,

“But what, Noble Lady, is bodily process, what is speech process, what is mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, is bodily process, thinking and reflection is speech process, perception and feeling is mental process.”

“But why is in-breathing and out-breathing, Noble Lady, bodily process, why is thinking and reflection speech process, why is perception and feeling mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily, these things are bound up with the body, therefore in-breathing and out-breathing is a bodily process.

Having thought and reflected beforehand, friend Visākha, he afterwards breaks forth with a word, therefore thinking and reflection is a speech process.

Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti

the translation 'preparation' has been used for sankhara. i think the etymology pertains to stage shows, as in backstage preparations.
nibbāna is the stilling of all preparations, which are referred to as hollow (phena sutta)
Here, Ananda, the Bhikkhu considers it all like this:
This is the supreme peace, this is sublime calm: The stilling of all formations,
the silencing of all mental construction, the relinquishing of all substrata
fuelling existence, the fading away of all craving, detachment, release,
ceasing, Nibbāna...
In this way, Ananda, the Bhikkhu may enter a mental absorption in which
there is no notion of 'I' and 'mine', no attacks of conceiving any internal
consciousness or any external objects and wherein he is both mentally
released and fully liberated through understanding this all...
In this silenced and wholly stilled state there is no inclination to "I" and
"mine-making", and no more attacks of conceit by latent tendencies to
identification, egotism, and narcissism!

Anguttara Nikāya AN 3:32
https://www.dhammatalks.net/samahita/St ... ibbana.htm
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:37 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:00 am
Mind explaining difference between volitional formation and formation ?
A formation is not necessarily something mental; such as kaya sankhara in MN 44 or ayyu sankhara in MN 43, which are physical. Also, a formation can be anything compounded together by various constituent parts, such as a building. Importantly, some mental formations appear not related to volition, for example, a dream or hallucination. For example, when a person becomes a teenager due to hormonal & chemical changes in the physical body; that sexual lust becomes a new predominant urge is not volitional. It just happens. For example, the first time a teenage boy has a sexy dream & a nocturnal emission is not volitional. I assume 'volition' implies making some kind of decision (however unaware or unwise). While there is one sutta that defines sankhara aggregate as 'volition' ('cetana'), I think sankhara aggregate is much more diverse than mere volition. For example, ignorance must also be sankhara aggregate yet ignorance is not volition. Ignorance just is.

Therefore, when 'volitional formations' is used to describe the 2nd link, it gives the impression (to me) a deliberate act of kamma is occurring at the 2nd link (rather than a non-volitional outflow of defilement).

Importantly, the word 'sankhara' at the 2nd link of D.O. appears to be a 'plural' therefore it appears not possible to have multiple volitions in a single mind moment. I think this alone gives rise to the suspicion that "volitional formations" is a wrong translation.

Where as "formations" include multiple formations arising in a single mind moment, which can be both mental & physical. For example, if a lustful formation arises from ignorance, lust thoughts will also arise and lusting breathing will also arise; in exactly the same mind moment. One single outflow of lust from ignorance generates many different kinds of formations in a single mind moment.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:00 am
Existence and being ?
I prefer 'becoming' because existence & being have various meanings in the English language. For example, in the Pali translation below, the word 'bhava' is not found:
By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence.

SN 12.15

Thanks .
It seems that the translation (in English) is having difficulty conveying accurately .
Formation , alone or volitional formation seems inadequate Imo.

What do you think , suggestion for sankhara (which I heard from a monk) in DO if translated as clinging formation ? That would make good sense .
I think it is better than translation as " choice " !

However , about mind moment sequence was never found in the sutta ?!

Does the sankhara in the five aggregates can be translated as intention or determination ?!

Yes, becoming maybe a better choice .
In SN 12.15 the word for existence in Pali is loka .
:reading:

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:16 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:31 am
james,

“But what, Noble Lady, is bodily process, what is speech process, what is mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, is bodily process, thinking and reflection is speech process, perception and feeling is mental process.”

“But why is in-breathing and out-breathing, Noble Lady, bodily process, why is thinking and reflection speech process, why is perception and feeling mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily, these things are bound up with the body, therefore in-breathing and out-breathing is a bodily process.

Having thought and reflected beforehand, friend Visākha, he afterwards breaks forth with a word, therefore thinking and reflection is a speech process.

Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti

the translation 'preparation' has been used for sankhara. i think the etymology pertains to stage shows, as in backstage preparations.
nibbāna is the stilling of all preparations, which are referred to as hollow (phena sutta)
Here, Ananda, the Bhikkhu considers it all like this:
This is the supreme peace, this is sublime calm: The stilling of all formations,
the silencing of all mental construction, the relinquishing of all substrata
fuelling existence, the fading away of all craving, detachment, release,
ceasing, Nibbāna...
In this way, Ananda, the Bhikkhu may enter a mental absorption in which
there is no notion of 'I' and 'mine', no attacks of conceiving any internal
consciousness or any external objects and wherein he is both mentally
released and fully liberated through understanding this all...
In this silenced and wholly stilled state there is no inclination to "I" and
"mine-making", and no more attacks of conceit by latent tendencies to
identification, egotism, and narcissism!

Anguttara Nikāya AN 3:32
https://www.dhammatalks.net/samahita/St ... ibbana.htm
Hi there Dhammarakkhito ,

Thanks for info. However ,
I would think preparation is not a good choice .
:reading:

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