It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Scott1989
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Scott1989 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:47 pm

Maybe you should drop it, Dawn. I agree with you, of course, but I am starting to realize what the problem is with saying to someone else that everything is inevitable.

When you let a computer make a complicated calculation, the moment you push the button, the answer is inevitable for you, but not for the computer! So telling yourself that everything is inevitable is perfectly fine when you see this is true, because if there is no self there is no way not to say that anyway, so you might as well let go. There is nothing you can do!

The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

In other words, telling yourself there is nothing you can do is perfectly fine when you have seen it to be true yourself. Telling someone else that there is nothing they can do and asking them to accept this by faith is problematic. I am starting to see why 'it is inevitable' is not a good way of teaching others (but a great way of teaching yourself!).

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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Scott1989 wrote:The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.
That's step in the right direction, because now you're starting to see the consequences of wrong views.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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James the Giant
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by James the Giant » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:52 pm

Scott1989 wrote: The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.
But I thought you were telling us it was all inevitable anyway, so telling or not telling, crime or not crime, inevitable! inevitable!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

SamKR
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by SamKR » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:25 am

Scott1989 wrote: When you start to see that everything is inevitable you will automatically be led to the eightfold path. When you start to practice the eightfold path you will automatically be led to see that everything is inevitable.
Scott,

I like the essence of your post, but I am not sure about two things you mentioned. The first is the word "inevitable"; it sounds like fatalism which the Buddha denied. I think "out of 'my' control" could be a better choice.
Second, I am not sure how seeing everything inevitable will automatically lead to the eightfold path. Could you explain it a bit more.

SamKR

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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:40 am

Scott1989 wrote:Maybe you should drop it, Dawn. I agree with you, of course, but I am starting to realize what the problem is with saying to someone else that everything is inevitable.

When you let a computer make a complicated calculation, the moment you push the button, the answer is inevitable for you, but not for the computer! So telling yourself that everything is inevitable is perfectly fine when you see this is true, because if there is no self there is no way not to say that anyway, so you might as well let go. There is nothing you can do!

The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

In other words, telling yourself there is nothing you can do is perfectly fine when you have seen it to be true yourself. Telling someone else that there is nothing they can do and asking them to accept this by faith is problematic. I am starting to see why 'it is inevitable' is not a good way of teaching others (but a great way of teaching yourself!).
It's true that we cant show this, and if we would like to show that, it will be not full and deep vision, so talking about that create an intelectual comprehention but not direct knowlege, so a denger of an anetical conduct basend on total nihilism can arise in some one who is listening and take that for somethink true without ferify by himself directly. There is no nihilism, and there is no someone who tent to approve his anethical conduct with such visions. So for some one who see that dhammas rises, dwells and desapears by their own, there is no nihilistic-egoistic behavior, there is dhamma behavior. Why? Because this knowlege create a compassion about beings who identify them selvs with dhammas, who suffering about dhammas, so he act in accordance with that knowlege who takes the place of the cause of that altruistic behavior...
Causes and consquances, it's all.

Anyway,
Before you dont see it, dont listen it
Until you saw it, dont tell it

Perharps i misunderstand somethink, or dont have a right view, i dont care about it, i feel freedom about dhammas, and sometimes i understand why some beings refuse to teach. There is no one who can save anybody, beings should be saved by them selves.
"One good deciple is not like a bowl that we must fill, but like a torch that we must inflame."

With Metta
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:22 am

SamKR wrote:
Scott1989 wrote: When you start to see that everything is inevitable you will automatically be led to the eightfold path. When you start to practice the eightfold path you will automatically be led to see that everything is inevitable.
Scott,

I like the essence of your post, but I am not sure about two things you mentioned. The first is the word "inevitable"; it sounds like fatalism which the Buddha denied. I think "out of 'my' control" could be a better choice.
You have a reason, "out of 'my' control" it's better for me to
SamKR wrote:Second, I am not sure how seeing everything inevitable will automatically lead to the eightfold path. Could you explain it a bit more.

SamKR
Right view
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right concentration

There is the word 'right' who means 'in conformity with'. In conformity with dhammas and the law that lead them, The Dhamma.
So we can read that :
Right view is the view in conformity with Dhamma, the law of dhammas, all fenomena is dhamma, sabbe dhamma anatta, and all dhammas are leaded by causes that becomes consequances that becomes causes and that becomes consequances... etc
All cognizable fenomena is dhamma that that follows his stream, Buddha is 'The One who knows', the one who is awere of all fenomenas, who is beyound all fenomenas.

Seeing that intelectualy dont leads directly to Eightfold Path, but knowing dirrectly leads to Eightfold Path. Thats why we practice, to clarify our view, to see deeply into the water, to understand that reflections on the lake bottom is not self, that they depends on wind, and that it's not stable, it's not a refuge, but the firm ground on wich this reflections take place is refuge. By seeing the ground we can reach it by simplyfing our life, by openning the door of our mind, and letting the water escape, than we can stand on the firm ground.
Of corse we can imagine that reflections depend on us, it's certanly true, because we can intrepret it, but we cant control it. Interpretation depends on our mind their mouvement depends on it self. Some beings interpret it like devas, others like asura, hell being or humains, everybody interpret these reflections in conformity with his ego, be cause the mind identifying with it, he watch trough the experiance of dhamma, wich is the body, and create the illusion of ego, tend to apropriate the dhammas, but he can't control it, so he suffering... suffering about fenomena of their life, suffering about he fenomenas of their body, suffering about the fenomenas in their mind... etc etc
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:40 am

If there is control, why there is dukkha?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Magoo
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Magoo » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:59 am

DAWN wrote:If there is control, why there is dukkha?
Because of desire, aversion and DELUSION which have created bad habits, in my case over a long period of time. Changing my views and habits will not happen like the flick of a switch, it will take time and effort.

Dont get me wrong here, I understand I dont have control over all my thoughts, but with right Mindfulness, I can gain some control and also control which thoughts I act on and which thoughts I dont. Plus equally important, the skill of my actions is enhanced.

With Metta
Eamonn

Scott1989
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Scott1989 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:33 am

SamKR, you are right. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it would have been better for me to say: everything that happened now was inevitable, but the future is not yet determined. Like you said, our minds and bodies still change and influence each other, but there is no 'I' in this process, so for this I it is inevitable.

As for your second question, the eightfold path is what led me to this realization. When you try to figure out every way for doing the right thing, you will gradually learn that doing the right thing comes naturally when you let go of trying to control (which always goes together with craving).

For instance, if we are fighting laziness, we might think we are doing the right thing, but in reality we are acting and choosing like a person who is lazy and who is fighting laziness, thus strengthening the belief that we are lazy and that we have to fight hard to get rid of it and thus we become this person again and again. When you start to see this, you will be led to understand what it means to truly let go.

I imagine it works the other way around too. If you start to see that there is no control for this 'I', you will recognize the moments that you are not doing the right thing and recognize these moments as your mind trying to control the situation. True surrender and doing the right thing go hand in hand.

unspoken
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by unspoken » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:48 am

Scott,
I think I understand what you are thinking. Let me write an example and mark me wrong if its not accordance to your realization and understanding. For example, If you are a student, you think of studying for finals. Any why you think of studying for finals? Because by identifying that you need to study for finals, you actually admit to yourself that the finals is here. And it is inevitable. Is that right? Like a person who says who do not want to sleep in the afternoon, because do not want himself to become lazy, by identifying that you need to stop becoming lazy, you actually subconsciously know or identify yourself is a lazy person, and this strengthen that idea of you are lazy. Is that true?

If you really think that way, I would like to ask in a humble manner. If a person knows himself is lazy, trying hard to solve this problem, but not just observing his identification of self, isnt it a good thing?

If by telling myself theres nothing I can do myself because there is no "I" that exist, there is only natural process taking place, going with the flow and automatically realize nibbana. But what if everything in the world, allowing it to take place, then we will always be miserable but no happy. Because the world is suffering. However if Gautama did not choose to live happy, not to choose to practice meditation, alms food, not choose to give up his family, not to choose to attain the ultimate truth, how can he enlighten? Same way goes to if we are just waiting and let natural selection take over, we keep reincarnate up till a point when we suddenly magically realize truth in an instant, not quite possible I say.

I cant judge people on how they think or interpret things because me myself is just a secular Buddhist. However, what I think, by not identifying my existence, therefore I will not appear in this round of samsara, is never the answer. Because even if i identify or not identifying myself, I am still here being miserable. I dont just exist here straight away simply because of the thought appears to me that I live in a miserable life. I wont be happy instantly if I ignore this thoughts of me living in this miserable life because there are things undone. this thought of I living in a miserable life was not mine in the first place, it comes it goes. Its by the world I live in. And the world where people suffer.

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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm

The Buddha never say : I think, I thought, i'am thinking
The Buddha always say : It arise in me, It comes to me

Volitional formations arise from ignorance
When there is no ignorance, volitional formations are distroyed

What is the ground on that volational formations grows up? Volitional formation grows up on the ground of choice illusion
Last edited by DAWN on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

Scott1989
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Scott1989 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Unspoken, the point of this realization is to let go of everything. Even choosing not to study or not to change should be let go of. Every conscious choice of doing or not doing comes from craving and keeps karma alive.

Choosing to think "I shouldn't think this way" or "it's all inevitable anyway" is also a form of clinging to thoughts. The point is to let go of all of it and realize that the only thing to do is to be awake ... to be aware of being aware in every single moment ... consciously aware. Right action follows from that. Everything else comes from misunderstanding of "who or what am I and what can I actually do" which makes us forget that we are aware.

But, I have already admitted that "it is all inevitable" might not be a good method for teaching someone who does not see what is meant by this.

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equilibrium
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by equilibrium » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:49 pm

This realization you have of no self.....what level of attainment is it?

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Magoo
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Magoo » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:33 pm

Hi Scott,

Can I be a devils advocate and ask a question please?

If you have to start work at 5.00am in the morning, how do you make sure that you are there at 5.00am? What is the process that you would go through? :thinking:

:namaste:
Eamonn

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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:42 am

Indeed, it's approuved by The Buddha him self :

SN 12.31
Bhutamidam Sutta: This Has Come Into Being ('What has come to be' by Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"Do you see, Sariputta, that 'this has come into being'?"

"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


SN 12.37
Not yours
Monks, this body is not yours, nor is it another's.
It should be comprehended, as some earlier, fixed, planned action.
About this the learned noble disciple wisely considers it is dependently arisen.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


PS: If th body is not our, if it is conditioned fenomena, so how all thought can be ours if they is conditioned by an conditioned phenomena with is the body? If our body is not our, how can we control it? It's illusion.

Anyway, we shuld be carefull :

SN 12.38-39-40
Cetana Sutta: Intention

"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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