My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by Alex123 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:58 pm

Hello all,

Some thoughts that I find to be deep are:

- Undesired bodily states, feelings, perceptions, reactions, and consciousness can arise.

- Body doesn't ask my permission to change, age, get sick, and die.

- Eye doesn't ask my permission what, when and how much will it see

- The ear doesn't ask my permission, what, when, and how much it will hear...

With best wishes,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

befriend
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by befriend » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:25 pm

how can a camera record without a clear lens?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

David2
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by David2 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:50 pm

befriend wrote:how can a camera record without a clear lens?
That's actually possible. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_camera" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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daverupa
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by daverupa » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:01 pm

David2 wrote:
befriend wrote:how can a camera record without a clear lens?
That's actually possible. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_camera" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then it seems the answer is, one-pointed input...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by DarwidHalim » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:31 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

Some thoughts that I find to be deep are:

- Undesired bodily states, feelings, perceptions, reactions, and consciousness can arise.

- Body doesn't ask my permission to change, age, get sick, and die.

- Eye doesn't ask my permission what, when and how much will it see

- The ear doesn't ask my permission, what, when, and how much it will hear...

With best wishes,

Alex
Exactly.

Anatta is not something we create. We cannot create anatta. Even we don't realize anatta, even we realize it as self, reality is untouched by our ignorance. Reality will still anatta.

Buddhahood cannot be created. We can't make something atta to anatta. We cannot change something from atta to anatta.

What we can do is to realize what has been anatta as anatta.

Because anatta cannot be changed by any force, even you wish to or even you cover it with the ignorance, anatta will not listen to you.

SInce buddhahood is the realization of this anatta, buddhahood cannot be created.

Just like you cannot create anatta, in the same way you cannot create your own buddhahood.

Just like you can only realize anatta which already with you all the time, in the same way, you can only realize your own buddhahood which is right now is already with you.

Creating buddhahood as something achieveable in the future, is just like someone who wants to create anatta in the future.

He doesn't know that actually right now, he or she is always in anatta or buddhahood.

We can only realize what has been buddha as buddha, just like what has been anatta as anatta.

We cannot create what is not buddha as buddha, just like we cannot create what is not anatta as anatta.

This realization is the issue.

Not buddhahood is the issue, because the buddhahood is already there within you right now, just like the anatta is already there within you right now.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

pegembara
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by pegembara » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:20 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

Some thoughts that I find to be deep are:

- Undesired bodily states, feelings, perceptions, reactions, and consciousness can arise.

- Body doesn't ask my permission to change, age, get sick, and die.

- Eye doesn't ask my permission what, when and how much will it see

- The ear doesn't ask my permission, what, when, and how much it will hear...

With best wishes,

Alex

Thoughts and feelings arise on their own without permission. Waking up in the morning occurs without permission. In fact most of our activities(walking, brushing teeth, bathing, toileting, fidgeting etc) occur without any self thought. The "I am _____" is just an afterthought.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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kirk5a
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by kirk5a » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:04 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:We can only realize what has been buddha as buddha, just like what has been anatta as anatta.
What is this "buddha" you're talking about?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by DarwidHalim » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:09 pm

Are yourself impermanent right now?

Are yourself anatta right now?

If yes, you can't run away from your buddhahood right now, even you wish to.

We can pretend to think about self and grasp at self as if we have this self.

We can go to the hell, go to the animal realm, go to god realm etc by holding this self.

But no matter you go, you are always impermanent and Anatta without the need for your permission.

This Anatta, your buddhahood, is inescapable, wherever you roam this samsara even you pretend you are always having self.

Anatta cannot be covered with ignorant, even we want to.

It just show its nature without our permission.

And that nature of Anatta is your buddhahood.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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kirk5a
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by kirk5a » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:59 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Are yourself impermanent right now?

Are yourself anatta right now?

If yes, you can't run away from your buddhahood right now, even you wish to.
So this impermanent body and mind right here is what you are calling "buddhahood" ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Alex123
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by Alex123 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:11 pm

DarwidHalim,

If we consider awakened one to be mental state without greed, anger, and delusion... If good action is motivated by non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion, then we are all potentially awakened and are just covered by adventitious defilements. If one would stop producing greed, anger and delusion - then it would be like nibbana here and now.


The most direct way to deal with anger is not to produce it in the first place. Same with other defilements. Defilements are not built-into 5 sense consciousness and basic consciousness.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by DarwidHalim » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:57 am

Impermanent although it itself is also showing the fact of Anatta, but not everybody agree with Anatta.

All people, even Muslim or christian, if you ask them this life is impermanent, they will agree with you. But if we ask them this life is also Anatta, they will reject you.

So knowing life is impermanent doesn't mean you can know Anatta.

If we know Anatta, it also doesn't mean we know impermanent. For those nihilist, they reject the impermanent, they reject the law of karma.

It is actually through impermanent behavior (the manifestation of kamma), Anatta is observable.

If we see a killer who just kill his mother, the killer himself although cannot run away from the impermanent hell and Anatta hell, he cannot run away from the fact of life - Anatta and impermanent.

Wherever he goes, whether hell or god realm, he cannot avoid Anatta and impermanent.

Whether he knows or not what it means by Anatta, whether he knows or not what it means by impermanent, whether he wants to live his life as permanent, whether he wants to live his life as if he is having this permanent self, sorry, your true nature which is impermanent and anatta cannot be affected by your wish and ignorant.

It is at all time, we are always in the state of impermanent and Anatta.

Your true nature, which is right now and at all time impermanent and Anatta, doesn't need your permission to be always anatta and impermanent.

There is no good and bad. It is our karmic view that see thing as good and bad.

You see your own shit, it is bad. That is our karmic view as a human.
If you change to a fly in the next minute, your same shit become your food and good. This is also your karmic view as a fly.

If you can take out your karmic view and just look at that shit, that shit is not good and not bad. It is also not neutral. It doesn't have any possible value because that shit is impermanent and Anatta.

In Anatta, there is no good and bad. Because there is no single self you can use as the base for your label as good or as bad.

Whether we realize this impermanent and anatta, that is a separate issue.

But, whether we are already in the impermanent and anatta, Your nature doesn't need your permission to show it all the time and right now.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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kirk5a
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:00 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Your true nature, which is right now and at all time impermanent and Anatta, doesn't need your permission to be always anatta and impermanent.
Regarding what is impermanent as "my true nature" is going in the opposite direction from seeing it as not self (anatta).

What is inconstant was described by the Buddha as "stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by DarwidHalim » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:45 am

kirk5a wrote: Regarding what is impermanent as "my true nature" is going in the opposite direction from seeing it as not self (anatta).
If you see impermanent, you will see Anatta. They are not opposite to each other.

If this nature is instead not impermanent, Anatta will not be seen, even by Buddha. You will see atta.
What is inconstant was described by the Buddha as "stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self"
What is inconstant is not a stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, etc.

Not knowing what is inconstant as inconstant is the stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, and so on.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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kirk5a
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by kirk5a » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:08 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
kirk5a wrote: Regarding what is impermanent as "my true nature" is going in the opposite direction from seeing it as not self (anatta).
If you see impermanent, you will see Anatta. They are not opposite to each other.
I said regarding what is impermanent as "my true nature" is going in the opposite direction from seeing it as not self (anatta).
What is inconstant is not a stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, etc.
That contradicts the instructions of the Buddha.
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not knowing what is inconstant as inconstant is the stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, and so on.
Doubly so, as in the arrow sutta.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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DarwidHalim
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Re: My thoughts on Anatta (not-Self)

Post by DarwidHalim » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:13 pm

kirk5a wrote: I said regarding what is impermanent as "my true nature" is going in the opposite direction from seeing it as not self (anatta).
In this case, you should know how to differentiate "my true nature" when it is spoken as a relative truth and "anatta" when it is spoken as a relative truth.
That contradicts the instructions of the Buddha.
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
There is no contradiction.

He said ...... as inconstant, stressful, a disease.....

THat statement doesn't mean inconstant is stressful, a disease, etc. like what has been expressed within this statement:
What is inconstant was described by the Buddha as "stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self"

The car is made from impermanent steel and the car is described as inconstant, mobile, useful, fast, and robust.
Concluding inconstant as mobile, useful, fast, and robust is absurd.

Similarly, Buddha said ....... as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer ....
Concluding inconstant as stressful, a disease, a cancer, ... is as absurd as the statement above.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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