Some doubts i would like help with...

[manas]

I have long grappled with this issue, and I would welcome (especially) evidences from sutta or from those knowledgeable in Dhamma, or both. Basically, there are two issues I cannot resolve as yet, and they are a bit related. One is that the Universe / World is described as impersonal, yet moral at the same time. The Law of kamma operates to, seemingly, reward goodness and punish badness - which almost mimics the human concept of morality - and yet, there's no-one in charge of this system, we are told. It just operates automatically, yes? This is where Theistic Hindus have a ready explanation - God is moral and virtuous, and that is why the Universe is also founded upon such laws - a kind of 'cosmic training ground'. But, how do we explain the fact that the World has a moral sense, as it were?

The other doubt relates to the Buddha himself. The World seems hell-bent on enjoyment, it is immersed in craving. And yet, the World also produces an escape from itself - the Noble Eightfold Path, which we are told is fabricated from the five khandhas, from right here in this world, just as the Buddha comes from this same world, and not from 'outside'. So, are we to believe that the World has built within it a kind of 'escape hatch', despite it being inherently conditioned and ignorant?

Sorry about the difficulty of these issues, but I would like to resolve these doubts, and put them to rest, so I can just get on with things.

Thanks for reading.

_/I\_

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Manas,

The Law of kamma operates to, seemingly, reward goodness and punish badness - which almost mimics the human concept of morality - and yet, there's no-one in charge of this system, we are told. It just operates automatically, yes?

Yes.

When action rooted in aversion, delusion or greed, the mind is naturally disturbed and the resultant experience is shaped accordingly - it is bad.

When action rooted in non-aversion, non-delusion or non-greed, the mind is naturally un-disturbed and the resultant experience is shaped accordingly - it is good.

You can see this for yourself.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

Whilst it wasn't originally intended to do so when I quoted it, the second last paragraph also addresses your second question.

Kamma and paticcasamuppada cover similar ground - the latter being a more intricate and detailed explanation of the former. The latter is still useful as a simple(r) frame of reference, and as a morality teaching for those to whom understanding paticcasamuppada is too troublesome or time-consuming. Neither should be grounds for speculation, but the steadfastness of their workings should be understood.

Metta,
Retro.

[manas]

Thanks retro,

and I think I will have to read and re-read that sutta a few times, and contemplate it's meaning over time. Hopefully real comprehension will sink in at some stage.

manas

_/I\_

[hanzze_]

Manas,

A very sort essay which might be useful: Karma

[Goofaholix]

I have long grappled with this issue, and I would welcome (especially) evidences from sutta or from those knowledgeable in Dhamma, or both. Basically, there are two issues I cannot resolve as yet, and they are a bit related. One is that the Universe / World is described as impersonal, yet moral at the same time. The Law of kamma operates to, seemingly, reward goodness and punish badness - which almost mimics the human concept of morality - and yet, there's no-one in charge of this system, we are told. It just operates automatically, yes? This is where Theistic Hindus have a ready explanation - God is moral and virtuous, and that is why the Universe is also founded upon such laws - a kind of 'cosmic training ground'. But, how do we explain the fact that the World has a moral sense, as it were?

It's simply cause and affect humans ascribe goodness and badness to what is simply a chain reaction, nobody is punished or rewarded they just receive the results of their actions, they can view it as punishment if they want to but as nobody is doing the punishing that's a limited viewpoint. If I plunge a knife into a bowl of water some water is displaced it's just cause and affect, if I plunge a knife into a human being there is also a cause and affect situation that arises.

The other doubt relates to the Buddha himself. The World seems hell-bent on enjoyment, it is immersed in craving. And yet, the World also produces an escape from itself - the Noble Eightfold Path, which we are told is fabricated from the five khandhas, from right here in this world, just as the Buddha comes from this same world, and not from 'outside'. So, are we to believe that the World has built within it a kind of 'escape hatch', despite it being inherently conditioned and ignorant

Again this assumes somebody or something is behind the controls designing it this way, and designing an escape hatch like a game designer, why assume that?

It's just the way reality is, impermanence creates uncertainty and stress, how could it not? How could not truly understanding this not alleviate stress?

[hermitwin]

you may wish to note that arahants do not suffer mentally.
they still have physical pains but they are peaceful mentally.
simply bcos they have understood and awaken from this dream.
when you are in a nightmare, you suffer terribly.
but when you wake up, you are relieved, it was just a dream.

[Reductor]

Good-day manas.

I've been thinking over your questions, and I'd like to share my thoughts about the second one.

Specially, both right and wrong knowledge are conditioned. The conditioned nature of knowledge is both the trap and the release -- if there wasn't conditioning, then there could be neither freedom nor bondage. The difference rests in how well they predict the results of our endeavours. The wrong kind is largely imposed on us by the world we live in, and has very little predictive value, instead setting us up for disappointment when the result we were after fails to materialize; this failure then produces in us frustration. The fact that our efforts often turn out wrong fills us with fear whenever we undertake to accomplish something; avoiding the result we fear causes the mind to seek a sure solution, resulting in ceaseless mental agitation.

Fear of what might or might not be, frustration with what is, and prolonged mental agitation are hallmarks of suffering, don't you think?

Sadly, however, we sometimes get lucky even when our predictive tools are poor. For example, we pursue a person that we're attracted too, and lo-and-behold we attain them, make love and happiness, and live thinking that things will always work out as we want. Then, bam, things go awry and we're plunged again in frustration and fear and look for a way out, all the while thinking our faulty tools are sufficient for the job because they seemed to have given good results before. This occasional success further reinforces confidence in wrong knowledge.

Enter into this the occasional accurate observation. If enough are made, even unintentionally over lifetimes, for instance, then a being comes away wondering if their assumptions are actually right or not. They then only need to pursue their doubt with observation and soon they'll see that they've been operating from wrong assumptions. With that realization they cease to operate from those wrong assumptions, which the world conditioned them to accept, and instead operate from the accurate observations. With that change they no longer experience fear, frustration or mental agitation.

Now, I cannot vouche for the complete accuracy of this post, nor for the clarity of its expression, but I hope that it was useful.

EDIT: some grammar and slight changes to wording for clarity's sake. Also removed a speculative statement about the universe. Whoops.

[manas]

In order of appearance,

hanzze - yes, thank you, that essay was useful.

Goofaholix - just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that there is or was a designer...I just find it amazing and baffling, but no I don't assume a 'designer' any more, because if there were, he she or it would have a heck of a lot of explaining to do - for starters, why the people claiming to represent him/her seem to have disputed with each other, often to the point of killing each other, for millenia

hermitwin - I'm certainly looking forward to waking up from dreaming. Seems to be taking a while, but put into the context of previous wanderings throughout unlimited births in Samsara, maybe we are waking up real fast, relative to the amount of lifetimes spent even more asleep than we might be now...

Reductor - I appreciate your thoughts on this. Maybe there is a bit of attrition over the countless lifetimes of wandering, whereby a being might actually get tired of the usual outcomes, and try a different approach. One would hope, anyway.

I have a bit of to do now, got sent a few other links too...thx again everyone, and a wish - *May we all, at the very least, enter the Stream that leads inexorably toward Nibbana, in this lifetime*

metta

[LonesomeYogurt]

I'm having trouble trying to articulate my thoughts on your first question, but here it goes:

Remember first of all that kamma is volitional action, not the results. The results of kamma are the fruits of kamma, or Vipāka. It's a small note but it helps to be clear.

Because we live in a creatorless universe, there is no overarching intrinsic, deontological essence of moral worth to an action. There is no universal good or bad declared by a God or Supreme Being. There is only cause and effect; some actions have results that generate generosity, compassion, and wisdom while other actions have results that generate greed, hatred, and delusion; the former are the roots of all joy and the latter are the roots of all suffering. Murder is wrong because as an action it generates mindstates that lead to suffering. That result, whether mental or physical, is the fruit of the kamma, or volition, that led to the action. If an action (kamma) did not lead to an unwholesome (i.e suffering-generating) result then the action could not be an unwholesome action.

To use philosophy language, A iff B, or: An action is wholesome (moral) if, and only if, its result is a wholesome (moral) result. So asking "Why are the fruits of wholesome kamma also wholesome?" is a little like asking "Why are all bachelors single?" in that the moral nature of an action can be defined by its result, in the same way that someone's status as a bachelor is dependent on their being single. You can't say, "This action was moral but the result was unwholesome" any more than you can say, "This person is a bachelor but he is married."

In Buddhism, wholesome behavior is that which leads to the end of suffering. If its result is unwholesome, then by definition the action could not have been wholesome because it did not lead to the end of suffering. When viewed this way, the universe does not seem moral but instead just logical; wholesome action = wholesome result.

I hope this helps! It's just my view of the matter, I hope I have not made any errors. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

[Goofaholix]

Goofaholix - just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that there is or was a designer...I just find it amazing and baffling, but no I don't assume a 'designer' any more, because if there were, he she or it would have a heck of a lot of explaining to do - for starters, why the people claiming to represent him/her seem to have disputed with each other, often to the point of killing each other, for millenia :|

That's right, it's just a natural law and any value judgements are our own. You could just as easily ask the same kinds of questions about the law of gravity.

[Cittasanto]

One is that the Universe / World is described as impersonal, yet moral at the same time. The Law of kamma operates to, seemingly, reward goodness and punish badness - which almost mimics the human concept of morality - and yet, there's no-one in charge of this system, we are told. It just operates automatically, yes? This is where Theistic Hindus have a ready explanation - God is moral and virtuous, and that is why the Universe is also founded upon such laws - a kind of 'cosmic training ground'. But, how do we explain the fact that the World has a moral sense, as it were?

If you look at the Cetana Sutta it shows that what we think provides the continuation of consciousness, so it is the same with actions (which stems from intentions) what is done leads to a similar place...

what one perceives, what one thinks over, and what one fills the senses with: this supports the continuation of consciousness.

it is just a cause and effect, remember that it is the intention which leads to actions, so if one fills the mind with morally unskilful thoughts, harbours resentment... it will lead to action and intentions which lead to these places, and it is also worth while to remember that the Buddha used conventions to express these ideas, and putting things into a moral framework is easier to explain than keeping it neutral, conventionally a fiery pit and a deva realm carry weight on a moral field.

The other doubt relates to the Buddha himself. The World seems hell-bent on enjoyment, it is immersed in craving. And yet, the World also produces an escape from itself - the Noble Eightfold Path, which we are told is fabricated from the five khandhas, from right here in this world, just as the Buddha comes from this same world, and not from 'outside'. So, are we to believe that the World has built within it a kind of 'escape hatch', despite it being inherently conditioned and ignorant?

where do you get the idea that the world produces the escape?
remember that there is an born, created, conditioned realm and because there is this, an unborn realm is also there, that dousn't necessarily mean that one created the other, just that because there is one, the other exists, it could be framed in reverse, but we tend to start our thinking with what we know so it is framed in the perspective of someone in the born realm. and as a result there is a bridge between the two, not created by one side, it is more like getting between two places doesn't depend on the road being there, but the act of traveling, as nibbana if seen as a verb, rather than a noun, (same for samsara) can explain this easier (for me at-least).

Hope this helps and is clear enough on the doubts you have.

[Dan74]

Manas

to me, there is one issue underlying both of your questions, pleasure and consequences and escape from pleasure and consequences.

First, it is worthwhile pondering just this one thing - pleasure. How we approach it, how we think about it, feel about it. Clarity and awareness are always useful, aren't they?

Seeking pleasure is human, there is no denying it. Not even the greatest sage when faced with a choice of picking a ripe fruit or a bitter fruit from the branch will pick the bitter one. But being driven by pleasure, motivated by pleasure, that's where the problem lies. The Dhamma provides a greater motivation in the form of nibbana, of liberation.

Consequences of our actions are often seen in the here-and-now in the peace of mind, clarity, a sense of profound freedom and a happy pure heart. The full workings of kamma are imponderable, the Buddha said, and I take that advice to heart and don't think about it beyond my range.

As for pleasure and pleasure-seeking, for as long as we remain slaves to it, peace of mind, clarity, a happy pure heart and a sense of profound freedom remain out of reach because the they are incompatible with a pleasure seeking mentality. In this way humanity thirsts for the ultimate happiness and freedom which entails leaving behind seeking for coarse pleasure.

Or so it seems to me...

[ground]

One is that the Universe / World is described as impersonal, yet moral at the same time.

When there is this then there is the arising of that. There is no morality in that.

The Law of kamma operates to, seemingly, reward goodness and punish badness

Neither reward nor punishment. Just: When there is this then there is the arising of that.

The World seems hell-bent on enjoyment, it is immersed in craving.

Only if you experience yourself like this ...

So, are we to believe that the World has built within it a kind of 'escape hatch', despite it being inherently conditioned and ignorant?

We are not to believe anything at all. But we may if there is evidence that it is helpful.

kind regards

[manas]

Cittasanto - yet another awesome sutta recommendation, thank you! Regarding your explanations, I will need to turn them over in my mind and contemplate them for a while, as I'm still a bit new to this subject matter.

Dan - ground - and everyone who replied earlier - thanks again. I think I have enough to go on with now, and if we could 'call it a day' on this topic now, that might be for the best.

manas

[Cittasanto]

Cittasanto - yet another awesome sutta recommendation, thank you! Regarding your explanations, I will need to turn them over in my mind and contemplate them for a while, as I'm still a bit new to this subject matter.

Dan - ground - and everyone who replied earlier - thanks again. I think I have enough to go on with now, and if we could 'call it a day' on this topic now, that might be for the best.

manas

Any questions don't hesitate to ask, I did find writing the second responce somewhat challanging to find the appropriate words...