Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by greggorious »

This thread is worrying, and I'm concerned if anyone has been taken in by the utter delusion that's coming out.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Volcommerce »

Hi friends,

I am fully wiling to submit to a master for a through discussion, examination, explanation and exploration.

I advise everyone not to get wound up in my claim to enlightenment, this is not important, I do not seek anything by making this claim; I do not seek the acknowledgement of this community, I do not seek respect or require anything of the members of this site, - the only thing I seek to do is teach, if I am indeed capable of doing so, and I encourage you all to ponder the nature of my contributions.

It is my sincere desire to come in to contact with a spiritual master. If you are out there please contact me.
dhamma_newb
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by dhamma_newb »

tiltbillings wrote:
suttametta wrote: And for those would be savants,
The problem with the supposed savants, as graphically illustrated in this thread, is that a nifty "self-transcending" experience is not awakening in the sense taught by the Buddha, and then there is the problem with such nifty experiences in that the spiritually hungry eat this stuff up as if it were something of actual substance.

It is not that there cannot be some value to such nifty experiences, but the value can be, and is way too often is, overshadowed by the "dark side" of such experiences, which is that it becomes another credential, another bit of self-identification.
"Prajna (panna) does not allow us to make a credential or ground out of anything. We could create credentials out of anything we do, including spirituality or the Buddhist tradition or the practice of meditation. We could use any of those things in our usual, conventional way of building credentials, building identity, trying to be special. We could say, "Now I'm a spiritual person who does blabbady-blah-blah." The response of prajna is, "Well, that's fine. You can say that, but you know that it doesn't hold a lot of water. You know that it's not all that solid." The sword of prajna cuts through our clinging to solid ground." - The Sharp Sword of Prajna
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman
greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by greggorious »

I'm not sure if there's anyone on here that would want you to be their teacher. Generally speaking anyone who has even a little bit of attainment in their practice I'm drawn to, inspired by. All I get from you is someone who has an inflamed sense of self importance. More than once you've been very defensive and put this down to all of us not having the same level as attainment as you have, this is extremely patronizing of you. You mention most of us being deluded and ruled by our ego's. I could easily say the same about you.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Volcommerce »

First I would like to state my continuous, unbroken stream of meditation. There is no longer a ''being aware'' of my thoughts and thinking about my thoughts. I am currently thoughtless, unthinking, unbound. If I was to attend a meditation, there would be change for me to ''meditate'' than to experience my 24-7 state of mind. I am not deluded, I am not ignorant, I have achieved such a thing, it is accessible by all.

To answer you.

If you do not feel I am a quality teacher, that is fine - to support your opinion I ask you to please read my posts, consider the information I have presented, and constructively comment on my information and explain why or why you do not think I am a quality teacher based your understanding of the Buddhist doctrine.

If you cannot complete these task, I would suggest that you are the one standing behind empty words and claims, including your reference to the prajna which you are utilizing as a reference to your knowledge which leads me expect clarification of your personal understanding and implication of the knowledge it contains. Please clarify or I must dismiss your opinion as non-sensical - not acting in right speech or right action.

''The first prajna, hearing, is based on being open to new information, gathering knowledge, and really trying to listen.'' .... '' You need to listen to the teachings as though your life depended on it. That is the proper way to go about the first prajna.''
Last edited by Volcommerce on Fri May 11, 2012 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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manas
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by manas »

Volcommerce wrote:Hi friends,

I am fully wiling to submit to a master for a through discussion, examination, explanation and exploration.

I advise everyone not to get wound up in my claim to enlightenment, this is not important, I do not seek anything by making this claim; I do not seek the acknowledgement of this community, I do not seek respect or require anything of the members of this site, - the only thing I seek to do is teach, if I am indeed capable of doing so, and I encourage you all to ponder the nature of my contributions.

It is my sincere desire to come in to contact with a spiritual master. If you are out there please contact me.
Hi Volcommerce,

it seems to me that you have had some kind of special meditation experiences or other peak or insightful experiences, and that you wish to be able to conceptualize them in order to be able to help others. If this is the case I really do recommend a study of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's 'Wings to Awakening' which goes over all the essential aspects of Buddhist Doctrine, that is, what the Buddha taught as essential (to the best of our current knowledge). Yes the Tipitaka is just words, and those words are just for expressing and communicating concepts. But they are words and concepts that, like a good map, can lead us beyond all words and concepts. They do have their proper use, either for reaching the further shore ourselves, or, if we have already done so, then helping others to reach the further shore. Otherwise, we will be like Krishnamurti, no disrespect intended to him, but I feel as though he might well have attained something that he just could not communicate properly. (Well I certainly can't be guided effectively by his teachings, try though I did once long ago).

'The Wings to Awakening':
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... aro/wings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just remembered something else. Many meditators have had quite interesting experiences during meditation and otherwise. These experiences come and go, and I'm sorry if this sounds trite or formulaic but it really is true. So as has been mentioned before, don't let any experience, no matter how amazing, deceive you. I haven't much Wisdom, but I have learned one thing - Wisdom ain't cheap. It's something deeper than any experience alone.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Fri May 11, 2012 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by tiltbillings »

Volcommerce wrote: If you do not feel I am a quality teacher, that is fine - to support your opinion I ask you to please read my posts, consider the information I have presented, and constructively comment on my information and explain why or why you do not think I am a quality teacher based your understanding of the Buddhist doctrine.

If you cannot complete these task, I would suggest that you are the one standing behind empty words and claims, including your reference to the prajna which you are utilizing as a reference to your knowledge which leads me expect clarification of your personal understanding and implication of the knowledge it contains. Please clarify or I must dismiss your opinion as non-sensical - not acting in right speech or right action.
It cuts both ways. You need to directly answer questions point to you and points raised about youir claims, which is something you do not do at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Goofaholix »

Volcommerce wrote:the only thing I seek to do is teach, if I am indeed capable of doing so, and I encourage you all to ponder the nature of my contributions.
If that's the case you should have just quietly got involved in the discussions without drawing attetion to yourself. This is what we do in discussion forums, we all teach each other, we all learn from each other, and in that process we come to respect each other.

Making an announcement like yours on your first post is not only poor netiquette it's just wrong on so many levels.

What strikes me about these threads is how kind hearted people on DW are.
Volcommerce wrote: It is my sincere desire to come in to contact with a spiritual master. If you are out there please contact me.
I suggest you are probably going to need to buy a plane ticket rather than expect someone to contact you via email. If you don't know of any respected teachers then perhaps if people thought you were sincere about this request they would suggest someone you can go and see.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Volcommerce »

Hi Manas,

I experienced a dawning of awareness when I was around seven years old. I have memories before this time, but I recall this time as being the entrance of my current awareness in to my body. Since this time, I've been undergoing constant meditative experience, constant self reflection, constant introspection and awareness, which has led me to my current unbroken stream of meditation. I experience a direct state of unbridled purity and awareness. I am no longer bound. This is accessible by all, if one is not bound by attachments and becoming, this process will unfold naturally. The power of ones desires and grasping and becoming is extremely powerful, and studying the Buddhist doctrine will not necessarily contribute to this self reflective process, for, self realization is an internal process dealing with one's karma and mental volition.

True honest intention is the most important aspect of this process, for, ones head and heart must be free from stains to have the honest desire and upstanding nature to attune onself with right action, right speech and right conduct.
.
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manas
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by manas »

Volcommerce wrote:Hi friends,

I am fully wiling to submit to a master for a through discussion, examination, explanation and exploration ... It is my sincere desire to come in to contact with a spiritual master. If you are out there please contact me.
I would recommend Ajahn Thanissaro, or Bhante Gunaratana. Both teach extensively in the States, afaik. But, Volcommerce, it is you who must approach them.

Maybe other people can recommend other masters for Volcommerce to consult? That might be the best thing we can do to be of service here.

_/I\_
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Volcommerce »

I find it interesting that you are of a confident opinion as to how an enlightened person should conduct his or herself, as if you hold some knowledge pertaining to the correct method of how an enlightened person should express his or her enlightenment. Could you please refer to Buddhist doctrine pertaining to how you have come to this understanding. If you cannot clarify this I would suggest that you are not acting in right speech or right action by suggesting unfounded claims regarding Buddhist doctrine and enlightenment.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by tiltbillings »

Volcommerce wrote: The power of ones desires and grasping and becoming is extremely powerful, and studying the Buddhist doctrine will not necessarily contribute to this self reflective process, for, self realization is an internal process dealing with one's karma and mental volition.
Right now you are simply writing fluff, airy stuff without any real substance. While you seem to be doing a crash course on Buddhism since you have logged on here, I am still waiting to see something from you that shows any actual substantive insight into the core of Buddhist practice and insight. And I have yet in all this arrogant bluster to see any real humility from you. Mostly, you are becoming increasingly pushy in your claims, which is not a good sign.

Unquestionably, if you say you have had all these ongoing experiences and insights, I'll believe you; however, that does not make what you have experienced of any real signficance in Buddhist terms. The fact that you are, as you have shown repeatedly, patently unable to empathize with those who see things differently from you speaks volumes about the nature of your claims.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Volcommerce »

I think if you take the time to reflect on the information I have presented, you will see that my core message consists of substantial insight in to the core of Buddhist practice and insight, for, if I have indeed made claims to that which I have acquired, I should be able to speak wisdom from my own experience and words, and it should be analyzed for consistency and explanation. There is nothing arrogant about my words, only explanations and concepts that I feel I have constructed to exemplify the most important points of my experience related to usefulness in how others will read them and digest them for personal growth and use.

I constantly emphasize with others, as I have stated before, I have respect for all people along the path, regardless of the their current level of understanding. My initial response in this thread was harsh because I had no expectation of how people would respond. I have since expressed my sincerity towards the members of this site and my respect for the Buddhist doctrine. I feel I have expressed many introspective comments of wisdom regarding the nature of self realization and Buddhist doctrine; if you feel I have not, or I have contributed false claims or lies, please quote them and comment on them in regards to the true nature of what you think I am proposing.
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mikenz66
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote:
Volcommerce wrote:the only thing I seek to do is teach, if I am indeed capable of doing so, and I encourage you all to ponder the nature of my contributions.
If that's the case you should have just quietly got involved in the discussions without drawing attention to yourself. This is what we do in discussion forums, we all teach each other, we all learn from each other, and in that process we come to respect each other.
Yes, this is what a number of experienced people who have come here have done. After a while it becomes reasonably clear that they have experience of what they are talking about...

The Buddha gave advice on choosing a teacher, which involves carefully watching their behaviour:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.
...
:anjali:
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Goofaholix
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Post by Goofaholix »

Volcommerce wrote: I find it interesting that you are of a confident opinion as to how an enlightened person should conduct his or herself, as if you hold some knowledge pertaining to the correct method of how an enlightened person should express his or her enlightenment. Could you please refer to Buddhist doctrine pertaining to how you have come to this understanding. If you cannot clarify this I would suggest that you are not acting in right speech or right action by suggesting unfounded claims regarding Buddhist doctrine and enlightenment.
It's called the Pali Canon, you'll find it's about someone who provides a very good example of how a fully awakened person conducts himself.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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