Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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waterchan
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by waterchan »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Which is natural - AB is a great populariser of Theravada which necessarily involves "dumbing it down" somewhat, making it sound easy to provoke engagement. I think this is what irks some people.
I don't think it's that so much... it's more the way he conflates "speculating about how existence, why we're here, the nature of the universe, other religions" (to quote greggorious) along with the actual Dhamma.

If Ajahn Brahm were to more clearly differentiate between the Buddha's teachings (or even Theravada's teachings) and his own speculative excursions, I think there would be less ire drawn... especially when you consider that the Dhamma of the Buddha actually contains plentiful warnings against pointless speculation on such matters (see MN 63 - Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta as one such example)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Obviously Ajahn Brahm gets a lot of criticism, but I have to say I'm rather surprised at this one. I've watched dozens of Ajahn Brahm's videos and I rarely hear metaphysical speculation from him. My impression of his talks is similar to what Dan74 said — a "dumbing down" of the Dhamma with a lot of emphasis on day-to-day compassion, kindness and equality. To me his public talks resemble the Dalai Lama in style. I often find myself wishing he'd get onto "serious" Dhamma topics, but I guess that's what his sutta classes and retreat talks are for.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi waterchan,
waterchan wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: I think some of us who work in physics (or other sciences) have a more realistic view than non-practitioners: that science is just one of our tool boxes.
I realize this is an old post, but I would like to hear you elaborate on what you meant by this statement. :smile:
I think Freeman Dyson says it better than I can:

Physics Legend Freeman Dyson On The One Thing We Just Don't Get About Science (PODCAST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/0 ... Technology
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not. Science is a process of exploring, which is always partial. We explore, and we find out things that we understand. We find out things we thought we understood were wrong. That's how it makes progress.
Those of us lucky enough to spend time doing scientific research know that science at the cutting edge is uncertain. Of course, we can be reasonably confident that Newton's laws will work fine (unless we go too fast or want to deal with something too small, in which case we need relativity or quantum mechanics), and we can rely on them to design bridges or cars.
But when it comes to new, speculative, theories, such as "dark energy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy), well, I wouldn't put money on them still being around in 10 years time.

:anjali:
Mike
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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Which is natural - AB is a great populariser of Theravada which necessarily involves "dumbing it down" somewhat, making it sound easy to provoke engagement. I think this is what irks some people.
I don't think it's that so much... it's more the way he conflates "speculating about how existence, why we're here, the nature of the universe, other religions" (to quote greggorious) along with the actual Dhamma.

If Ajahn Brahm were to more clearly differentiate between the Buddha's teachings (or even Theravada's teachings) and his own speculative excursions, I think there would be less ire drawn... especially when you consider that the Dhamma of the Buddha actually contains plentiful warnings against pointless speculation on such matters (see MN 63 - Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta as one such example)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro! :hello:

We were at Ajahn Brahm's talk last weekend at BSV (see pic below!) and he talked about forgiving. Look, to be frank with you I feel very uncomfortable discussing the Sangha unless there is an urgent matter, allegations of misconduct to warn people about, etc. As far as I can make out, Ajahn Brahm has been a sincere dedicated monk for most of his life, this commitment alone deserves a great deal of respect. He's practiced hard, his outreach is incredible. Of course he isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea and that's OK. Neither is the Dalai Lama, for that matter (since he's been compared to him), but both also teach retreats and give detailed instructions, not only these broad audience talks.

I suspect I'm repeating myself, but basically these Sangha (like AB, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ajahn Sumedho, Ven Nanananda etc etc etc) are people we should be looking up to in many many ways, but rather than do that, criticism comes much more naturally to us. Of course we will have our preferences and some teachers will resonate more with us than others and that's OK, but I am grateful that we have these amazing people in the Sangha, even when some things they do rub us the wrong way. That said, if you find that he is teaching something you find at odds with the Dhamma, then of course it could be beneficial for all to discuss that (hopefully also with AB's input).

Image
Last edited by Dan74 on Sat May 10, 2014 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
_/|\_
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by mikenz66 »

Very inspirational picture Dan!

:anjali:
Mike
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Jetavan
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Jetavan »

Once a physicist, always a physicist.
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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Dan74 »

mikenz66 wrote:Very inspirational picture Dan!

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks, Mike! Inspiration is what I am always very grateful for - I find it is so easy to find excuses and forget about what really matters. BTW, the two munchkins are ours.
_/|\_
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Mkoll
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Mkoll »

That really is a nice picture. It looks so good as to be pre-planned but I don't think it is.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Feathers
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Feathers »

I love that picture, because it's at the same time so ordinary - normal looking kids and a monk whose robes look a bit wrinkled and who looks completely 'human' - and so full of joy.
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khlawng
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by khlawng »

AB has a rockstar status in my country.
But i suspect most people go to his talks for entertainment rather than enlightenment.
And when one attract followers with such expectations, priorities needs to be re-examined imho.
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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Dan74 »

Mkoll wrote:That really is a nice picture. It looks so good as to be pre-planned but I don't think it is.
Definitely not preplanned, James (but I do do a lot of photography). The Sangha were doing the alms round, Ajahn Jag is behind Ajahn Brahm and there were two nuns too. I don't think he was even aware of me taking that shot. Glad you liked it and Feathers, too - thank you, but, sorry for dragging the thread :offtopic:
_/|\_
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melancholy
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by melancholy »

Mr Man wrote:I don't think levitation (the physical body floating off the floor) is possible but I could be wrong ;)
you are wrong for sure, because i witnessed this once. and of course, the monk was not an ajahn brahm student. ;)
khlawng wrote:AB has a rockstar status in my country.
But i suspect most people go to his talks for entertainment rather than enlightenment.
And when one attract followers with such expectations, priorities needs to be re-examined imho.
i think same goes for my country, at least i can say that about my friends whom now even joke about buddha. i used to listen to ajahn brahm's talks for the same reason i listened to comedians. i lost interest even in his repeated jokes when i hear he criticize other spiritual figures and sometimes monks from his own lineage. during my stay at bodhyana i also found incidents where he unfairly pressurize others to get the job done the way he wants. to me this is itself a joke as ajahn brahm advocates not to be fault-finding and also not be a control freak.

i am not saying everything comes from his mouth as bad, but when we hear and see such things there is a question about the root. however, to be on positive side, ajahn brahm's imperfect behaviour managed to increase my faith on the buddha to a very high level and stopped me to go after modern-day guru figures.
Power can make things disappear, so does me :D

Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone.

-Dīgha Nikāya 16, Mahāparinibbāna Sutta
__________________________________

gO tO wORK, gET mARRIED, hAVE sOME kIDS;
wATCH yOUR tV, fOLLOW fASHION, aCT nORMAL;
pAY yOUR tAXES, pAY yOUR bILLS, oBEY tHE lAW;
aND rEPEAT aFTER mE: "i aM fREE."
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Alex123
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Alex123 »

melancholy wrote:i lost interest even in his repeated jokes when i hear he criticize other spiritual figures and sometimes monks from his own lineage. during my stay at bodhyana i also found incidents where he unfairly pressurize others to get the job done the way he wants. to me this is itself a joke as ajahn brahm advocates not to be fault-finding and also not be a control freak.
I am sad to hear that considering what great things he wrote in his books about no controlling, not being fault finding, etc.... :cry:
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melancholy
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by melancholy »

need not to be sad, because it is human nature. without getting attached to the person, if you can take the great things he wrote, there will be no problem, and still you can learn and appreciate the dhamma. :) once attached to the person then you want him to be with no faults, once faults found get sad. buddha never advised to get attached to people.

we normally do not get sad when we found the dhamma book we read found as dusty, old, and imperfect, aren't we?

may you be happy and well!
Power can make things disappear, so does me :D

Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone.

-Dīgha Nikāya 16, Mahāparinibbāna Sutta
__________________________________

gO tO wORK, gET mARRIED, hAVE sOME kIDS;
wATCH yOUR tV, fOLLOW fASHION, aCT nORMAL;
pAY yOUR tAXES, pAY yOUR bILLS, oBEY tHE lAW;
aND rEPEAT aFTER mE: "i aM fREE."
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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by Mr Man »

melancholy wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I don't think levitation (the physical body floating off the floor) is possible but I could be wrong ;)
you are wrong for sure, because i witnessed this once. and of course, the monk was not an ajahn brahm student. ;)
So now you hold a strong belief that it is possible to levitate. Isn't it strange how the mind works?
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melancholy
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Re: Ajahn Brahm, unconventional

Post by melancholy »

Mr Man wrote:So now you hold a strong belief that it is possible to levitate. Isn't it strange how the mind works?
Mr Man, no I do not hold a strong "belief". it is simply i "know", having witnessed. this is not by some youtube video nor by a con. also, earlier i have no disbelief nor a though that it is impossible :)

your second question, i do not understand in this context. perhaps you have something else in the mind or am i missing something :shrug:

may you be well! :anjali:
Power can make things disappear, so does me :D

Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone.

-Dīgha Nikāya 16, Mahāparinibbāna Sutta
__________________________________

gO tO wORK, gET mARRIED, hAVE sOME kIDS;
wATCH yOUR tV, fOLLOW fASHION, aCT nORMAL;
pAY yOUR tAXES, pAY yOUR bILLS, oBEY tHE lAW;
aND rEPEAT aFTER mE: "i aM fREE."
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