Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by santa100 » Fri May 04, 2012 3:23 pm

It'd be much more straightforward in martial arts. If a Taekwondo guy's dissing an MMA guy as unorthodox or unauthentic or whatever, he'd find out the truth 3 seconds later after they stepped into the ring..So, whether it's Buddhism or martial arts, it's not about the "art", it's about the "practitioner"..

steve19800
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Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by steve19800 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:39 am

santa100 wrote:Actually, I think it's possible that Mara could be both mental defilements as pointed out by David AND some bad powerful dude ruling from his realm..I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. By the way, I remember some sutta did mention him as a being residing in one of the realms. If anyone could point it out, I'd greatly appreciate it..
Mara dwells in the highest heaven of desire realm, Paranimmita-vasavatti. :console:

steve19800
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Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by steve19800 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:23 am

Just want to add a little bit of himalayanspirit post about ' read somewhere '.
On Mahayana Buddhism, the doctrinal foundation by Paul Williams p.29: The origins and justification of the Mahayana Sutras.

Finally, where did these Mahayana sutras come from and what justification could possibly be give by Mahayanists for their creation? We have already seen that as far as the non Mahayana traditions were concerned, the Mahayana Sutras were not the words of Buddha but rather the work of poets, in Aṣṭasāhasrikā perfection of wisdom, Mahayanists are warned to be on their guard against this accusation, since it comes from Mara, the Buddhist tempter (see Macqueen 1981:304)

There were actually two persons called Mahadeva, one who is believed to be the person who started a sect called Caitika therefore caused a great schism. Some say he was under influence of Mara. He was born as a very intelligent human being but committed some serious bad Karma i.e. incest with his mother, caught by his father therefore killed his father, ran away with his mum, one day his mother had a sexual relationship with a man therefore he killed his mother. After doing this he was deeply regret, until one time he met a spiritual teacher, astonished by his intelligence he ordained him as a monk without knowing more about his background (anantarika karma). Since then, he became a spiritual leader and acknowledged by his disciples as Arhat, but unfortunately his cultivation was not as great as his intelligence therefore to covered up his flaw he introduced 'five theses' and many many more..

Just want to discuss, never mean to say this is true that one is false. But AFAIK, historical Sakyamuni Buddha never taught please remain in Samsara to help all sentient beings, what he taught was how to end the suffering, liberate yourself from Samsara and make yourself as a place of refuge. This planet earth may be vanished one day but it does not mean that there is no single living being alive as it is the characteristic of Samsara. I don't know if Buddha said anything about end of Samsara or Samsara could end for all being but he did say very clearly the end of Samsara for those who practice diligently and strive for it. Once again, just throw some words, please don't get me wrong I am not saying Theravada is genuine or forgery.

suttametta
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Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by suttametta » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:47 pm

It often occurs to me that Vajrayana meditation states, like clear light, bliss and non-thought are samsaric realms. Similarly, the very "pure visions" of paths like Dzogchen Thodgal are Pabhassara realm appearances and not pure "neither samsara nor nirvana," because the lights are born from samsaric winds. The understanding in the dzogchen tantras is that Samantabhadra saw the five lights and instead of manifesting as a samsaric being, recognized his own appearance and was thus liberated. That might be so, but the lights, then, are, as is understood in Abhidharma, the beginning of the first realm of samsara at the beginning of the universal cycle, the Pabhassara realm. Also, the "Pure Lands" are "manifestations of love," as Garchen Rinpoche told me, and so they are off-shoots of the realm of infinite space as Buddha explained in the sutta (cite needed). Compassion-bodhichitta is an offshoot of the realm of infinite consciousness. Many of the upadesha texts discuss "Mahamudra" or "Dzogchen" which are synonyms for bodhichitta as being "vast." It is also said that if one becomes attached to clarity, bliss or nonthought one will be reborn in the realm of infinite consciousness, nothingness or neither perception nor non-perception. The Vajrayana/Dzogchen account is that you can only get Buddhahood here on Earth or in the bardo, if you don't you will have to wait until the universe is destroyed and reborn. The "bardo" is another name for Akanistha. There is also a huge silence in the Mahayana record about why an arya-being reborn in Akanistha couldn't achieve "buddhahood" there, which is a realm not subject to destruction as it is stated in the Mahayana Abhidharma. You couple this with all the lying, aka skillful means, that these masters engage in about what the tantras say etc., in order to keep you in their mandala aka mind prison, you can definitely get the impression they are the work of Mara.

But, remember, this is the degenerate age. What the Buddha really taught is impossible to know. It behooves all to explore these notions so that we can get a better grip on our own liberation. If you practice Vajrayana and Dzogchen, then go back an do dhamma the Pali way, you might find out your ability to "nibbana" your defilements has improved drastically. Then you will be hard-pressed to deny those "skillful means" didn't actually help you. This is a squirrelly sucker.

steve19800
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Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by steve19800 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:19 am

YouthThunder wrote:just curious,have anyone of you ask this thing to the Vajrayana/mahayana buddhists before?
Everyone chooses their belief carefully so no one will say what they belief is wrong. FYI, some scriptures that are used as a based of Mahayana tradition were systematized at the fourth council, while the fourth council was not known to the elders.

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DarwidHalim
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Is Vajrayana/Mahayana the work of Mara?

Post by DarwidHalim » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:54 am

steve19800 wrote:Everyone chooses their belief carefully so no one will say what they belief is wrong. FYI, some scriptures that are used as a based of Mahayana tradition were systematized at the fourth council, while the fourth council was not known to the elders.
There is one thing that I cannot understand.

How can we determine these buddhist teachings, these are not buddhist teaching from the time they appear in writing?

Since Buddha gave teaching sometime to these group, sometimes to that group, of course what that group heard, I can't know. What buddha tell me, another group may not even know.

If this group who have heard this teaching never ever heard by another group after the Buddha pass away, of course this group will say this is the teaching I have heard. That group will say we never heard that, so it is not a buddhist teaching.

What surprise me is that there are people who can believe all buddhist teachings can only valid if they appear from this date to that date.

Beyond that last date or beyond this council, the deadline for buddhist teaching to be valid is already closed.

Hellowww, that is simply illogical and it has no sense.

Buddhist teachings are accepted based on the contents - which is proveable to the yogic experience of those practitioners.

Buddhist teachings are accepted based on how the whole teachings, regardless of any timeline or any deadline, link together as a solid truth.

Not based on the deadline which is set up by this group or that group.

The worst monopoly ever.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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