Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

[vinasp]

Hi Nana,

"Ananda, there are eight reasons, eight causes for the appearance of
a great earthquake. This great earth is established on water, the
water on the wind, the wind on space." [ DN 16.3.13 Walshe 1987 ]

So it seems that the Buddha thought that the earth was flat.

Do you believe that the earth is flat?

Do you want all of us to believe that the earth is flat?

Do you think that the Buddha may have been wrong about that?

If he was wrong about the earth, could he have been wrong about other
things?

Regards, Vincent.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

In other words, rather than headlong believing in nibbana, we can see and understand the characteristics of experience which make it not nibbana.

I don't understand the point here. Did anyone suggest attaining nibbana by believing it?

I'll refer you to my "rubbish tip" simile I added to my post (seemingly whilst you were responding to it).

Metta,
Retro.

[Goofaholix]

That nibbana is possible. Something that I take on faith.

I think when you observe the cooling of desire aversion and delusion in some measure over time that gives one a taste of nibbana, then it becomes more based on confidence rather than faith.

Sure you can't be absolutely certain that ultimate freedom is possible, but you an have confidence that if it is you're heading in the right direction.

[mikenz66]

I don't understand the point here. Did anyone suggest attaining nibbana by believing it?

I'll refer you to my "rubbish tip" simile I added to my post (seemingly whilst you were responding to it).

Is that your invention, or does it have some basis in suttas or commentaries?


Mike

[mikenz66]

That nibbana is possible. Something that I take on faith.

I think when you observe the cooling of desire aversion and delusion in some measure over time that gives one a taste of nibbana, then it becomes more based on confidence rather than faith.

Sure you can't be absolutely certain that ultimate freedom is possible, but you an have confidence that if it is you're heading in the right direction.

Well, yes, of course, that's how all of us operate. I'm mostly objecting to the labelling of some things in the suttas as "speculative" or "appeals to authority" and some not.


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

Is that your invention, or does it have some basis in suttas or commentaries?

I think it's my invention (though I vaguely recall Ajahn Chah saying something not dissimilar) ... it just seemed like an apt way of explaining the point I was trying to make.

Metta,
Retro.

[Goofaholix]

Well, yes, of course, that's how all of us operate. I'm mostly objecting to the labelling of some things in the suttas as "speculative" or "appeals to authority" and some not.

I think whatever approach we take to questions like these we need to be aware of our own fallibility, grasping at certainty will never overcome this, our practise is a work in progress.

As Ajahn Chah is reported to have said a great deal "mai nair" everything is uncertain.

[mikenz66]

Is that your invention, or does it have some basis in suttas or commentaries?

I think it's my invention (though I vaguely recall Ajahn Chah saying something not dissimilar) ... it just seemed like an apt way of explaining the point I was trying to make.

In the story I remember Ajahn Chah was talking about people coming to him with their problems. He said was a rubbish bin with no bottom, so he didn't keep any of the rubbish.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at, but we're probably getting off topic for this thread...


Mike

[mikenz66]

I think whatever approach we take to questions like these we need to be aware of our own fallibility, grasping at certainty will never overcome this, our practise is a work in progress.

We certainly agree on that!


Mike

[Spiny O'Norman]

To keep an 'agnostic' attitude or an 'open mind' in questions with a probability rate very close to zero, is not very rational.

But assessing the "probability" rate is a very subjective process based on limited information, the majority view, and on existing preconceptions and assumptions. We've mentioned the flat earth example, and I'm sure there was a time when the probabality rate of the earth being round was considered very close to zero by most people.

What I'm suggesting is that while saying "I don't know" can be uncomfortable, it's also quite liberating - because most of the time we don't really know.

Spiny

[Spiny O'Norman]

"Ananda, there are eight reasons, eight causes for the appearance of
a great earthquake. This great earth is established on water, the
water on the wind, the wind on space." [ DN 16.3.13 Walshe 1987 ]

So it seems that the Buddha thought that the earth was flat.

I don't see how you've drawn this conclusion from the quote?

Spiny

[vinasp]

Hi Spiny,

I was interpreting that quote in the light of more detailed descriptions, for
example:

"Ancient Buddhists imagined the universe as essentially flat, with Mount Meru at the center of all things. Surrounding this universe was a vast expanse of water, and surrounding the water was a vast expanse of wind."

"Our world was thought to be a wedge-shaped island continent in a vast sea south of Mount Meru, called Jambudvipa, in the realm of Kāmadhātu. The earth, then, was thought to be flat and surrounded by ocean."

Link: http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthi ... ntmeru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Vincent.

[Aloka]

I was interpreting that quote in the light of more detailed descriptions, for
example:

"Ancient Buddhists imagined the universe as essentially flat, with Mount Meru at the center of all things. Surrounding this universe was a vast expanse of water, and surrounding the water was a vast expanse of wind."

"Our world was thought to be a wedge-shaped island continent in a vast sea south of Mount Meru, called Jambudvipa, in the realm of Kāmadhātu. The earth, then, was thought to be flat and surrounded by ocean."

Link: http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthi ... ntmeru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Vincent.

That sounds like the imagery from the offering of the 'Mandala of the Universe' in Tibetan Buddhist Ngondro practice.

Kind regards

Aloka

[Nyana]

"Ananda, there are eight reasons, eight causes for the appearance of
a great earthquake. This great earth is established on water, the
water on the wind, the wind on space." [ DN 16.3.13 Walshe 1987 ]

Human knowledge of the natural sciences has developed significantly in the last 400 years. Human knowledge of kamma, rebirth, and the noble eightfold path has not. Moreover, geology and cartography are not relevant disciplinary fields for understanding kamma, the recollection of past lives, the vision of the passing away and reappearance of sentient beings, and the noble eightfold path. Therefore, there is no need for buddhas or arahants to have developed detailed models and maps pertaining to these worldly disciplines.

[santa100]

vinasp wrote:
"Ananda, there are eight reasons, eight causes for the appearance of
a great earthquake. This great earth is established on water, the
water on the wind, the wind on space." [ DN 16.3.13 Walshe 1987 ]

Actually the Buddha's description was quite close to modern scientific description of the structure of the earth. Beneath the outer crust, there're the upper mantle, the mantle, the outer core, and the inner core, and guess what, they're mostly liquid! The problem was that even though the Buddha knew all of this all along, He could not simply use these scientific vocabulary to describe to the people 2500 years ago. Imagine describing Quantum Mechanic to a 3 year-old child. He had to use whatever most conducive to getting the idea across. To describe a black hole sitting at the center of our galaxy sucking in everything around it, He probably had to use the image of a gigantic dark monster with huge fiery mouth eating everthing around it. So, it'd be very careful before jumping into conclusion that the Buddha was wrong on this or that issue..