Greetings,
FYI... a related thread at Dharma Wheel.
How has Theravada benefited your practice?
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
- retrofuturist
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Yes.Really?
Many and various places.Where?
Was.Are you a Western Zen practitioner?
Your skeptical tone seems ill-advised to me, then.I'm not
That's cool.I lived around the corner from the San Francisco Zen Center for many years, sat there regularly, attended ceremonies, and socialized extensively with the sangha.
Which logically means it's like that everywhere else, of course.A drier, more serious bunch of practitioners would be very difficult to find anywhere.
Not that I have anything to prove to you, but one of the things that turned me off to Zen was that groups I sat with, in several American cities, Scotland, and Norway it was incredibly common for people to develop an obnoxious "zen" persona that was all about speaking cryptically, justifying the unjustifiable as the actions of awakened beings, using the example of people like Ikkyu rather than any kind of actual Buddhist teaching as a template for their practice, etc. Sorry that doesn't accord with your own experience, but I hope I met the standards of evidence you required.I'd be very interested in hearing from you examples of where this crazy wisdom is manifesting, and what your definition of "crazy wisdom" is in the context of this Western Zen "crazy wisdom clearinghouse" that you apparently have personal experience of.
"We do not embrace reason at the expense of emotion. We embrace it at the expense of self-deception."
-- Herbert Muschamp
-- Herbert Muschamp
- Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Me too, very similar. FWBO initially ( 30 years ago - ) then NKT, then Rigpa, then Tich Naht Han, Therevadin in recent years. All very useful experience, particularly in terms of comparing similarities and differences and getting the big picture, like looking at something from a number of different directions. Actually I wouldn't describe myself as a Therevadin Buddhist, just as a Buddhist who is currently practising in the Therevadin tradition. But to answer the question, yes, a Mahayana perspective is very useful for Therevadins, almost "required reading" in my opinion.Fede wrote:I first encountered Buddhism via the Mahayana/Tibetan Buddhism route.
Much of the preliminary literature I read, was presented from a Mahayana Tibetan/Zen perspective.
had it not been for these, my travels would not have been so fruitful.
It took me a long time for me to decide where to pitch my tent and hoist my pennant.
In the end, after much deliberation and confusion (as many here will attest to) I swerved towards Theravada.
Why? Simply because there were some notions and ideologies in Mahayana I could not easily digest or accept.
This is not to say I considered them wrong, or bad, or even inaccurate.
It is merely to say that they did not sit well with me specifically.
Rick
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
i never saw this in real life only on the internetsMexicali wrote:
Not that I have anything to prove to you, but one of the things that turned me off to Zen was that groups I sat with, in several American cities, Scotland, and Norway it was incredibly common for people to develop an obnoxious "zen" persona that was all about speaking cryptically, justifying the unjustifiable as the actions of awakened beings, using the example of people like Ikkyu rather than any kind of actual Buddhist teaching as a template for their practice, etc. Sorry that doesn't accord with your own experience, but I hope I met the standards of evidence you required.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
- tiltbillings
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
And it really is annoying.jcsuperstar wrote:i never saw this in real life only on the internetsMexicali wrote:
Not that I have anything to prove to you, but one of the things that turned me off to Zen was that groups I sat with, in several American cities, Scotland, and Norway it was incredibly common for people to develop an obnoxious "zen" persona that was all about speaking cryptically, justifying the unjustifiable as the actions of awakened beings, using the example of people like Ikkyu rather than any kind of actual Buddhist teaching as a template for their practice, etc. Sorry that doesn't accord with your own experience, but I hope I met the standards of evidence you required.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I just wanted to add that IMO the reverse is also true, in other words Mahayanist Buddhists would benefit greatly from an understanding of the Therevadin approach. In my experience over the years some Mahayanists are very vague about the "basic" teachings, eg the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eight Fold Path.Rick O'Shez wrote: But to answer the question, yes, a Mahayana perspective is very useful for Therevadins, almost "required reading" in my opinion.
Rick
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I dont see how anyone could rightly judge that who was not an Arahant, unless you are saying......?floating_abu wrote:Being an Arahant is no big deal, but do heed Luang Por Chah's advice on the matter. Best wishes in all.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
I think FA is referring to one of Ajahn Chah's many iconoclastic statements from "No Ajahn Chah":Sanghamitta wrote:I dont see how anyone could rightly judge that who was not an Arahant, unless you are saying......?floating_abu wrote:Being an Arahant is no big deal, but do heed Luang Por Chah's advice on the matter. Best wishes in all.
Which, in my view, is not really a statement about arahants in particular. It is saying that trying to be anything will cause suffering..."Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer."
Metta
Mike
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Which is , may I suggest, an example of the Internet curse of selective quoting, and still does not address the " no big deal " issue. Its ok for Ajahn Chah to take a view from his position. I think the rest of us need to be cautious.mikenz66 wrote:I think FA is referring to one of Ajahn Chah's many iconoclastic statements from "No Ajahn Chah":Sanghamitta wrote:I dont see how anyone could rightly judge that who was not an Arahant, unless you are saying......?floating_abu wrote:Being an Arahant is no big deal, but do heed Luang Por Chah's advice on the matter. Best wishes in all.Which, in my view, is not really a statement about arahants in particular. It is saying that trying to be anything will cause suffering..."Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer."
Metta
Mike
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
- Pannapetar
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
To answer the question of the thread starter: For myself, being "locked" into Theravada by living in Thailand, the Mahayana perspective has certainly been useful. I can say it has enhanced my understanding. My favourites are the Heart Sutra, the Lotus Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, the Mahaparinirvana Sutra and the Platform Sutra. I also found several books quite helpful, such as the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche.
Cheers, Thomas
Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Many things may be useful, anything can be useful if approached correctly. However the Way Of The Elders is complete in itself. As a very experienced Forest Tradition monk once said to me after reading Sogyal Rinpoche's BOTD. " Its very good, but as far as I am concerned all of the mahayana is gilding the lily. "
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Well, he may have been an excellent Forest Monk, but he had precious little understanding of Mahayana, I think.Sanghamitta wrote:Many things may be useful, anything can be useful if approached correctly. However the Way Of The Elders is complete in itself. As a very experienced Forest Tradition monk once said to me after reading Sogyal Rinpoche's BOTD. " Its very good, but as far as I am concerned all of the mahayana is gilding the lily. "
Mahayana is not an unnecessary growth on the Pali Canon, it is a system in itself, with its methods, tenets, iconography, literature, etc. This system has a great deal in common with Theravada at its core (it is Buddhism!) but in other respects it can be very different (depending on the school). That's why 'gilding the lilly' does not fit. You can criticise it in other ways of course.
_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
The forest monk in question is one of the most famous and known to be an excellent forest monk. I will not name him because the conversation was private and off the record. Western forest monks and increasingly Asian ones too are almost always aquainted with whole gamut of Buddhist views before committing to the Theravada Sangha. They do not make that commitment because they prefer the colour of the robes. Many of them, and this can be easily verified, like the one I have quoted make that choice precisely because of the absence of concepts like " Buddha Nature" and the " Bodhisattva vow ". I dont think that is a controversial statement, particularly in the context of a Theravada website.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
To some degree there are things within the Mahayana that are of interest and value to Theravadins, but being a complete and full path to the same awakening acheived by the Buddha, there is nothing that the Theravada needs from the Mahayana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is Mahayana perspective useful for Theravada practitioners?
Very well put. For anyone not aquanted with the expression " gilding the lily " it means taking something already perfect and then elaborating on it so that its perfection is obscured. Like taking a beautiful white lily and spraying it with gold paint.tiltbillings wrote:To some degree there are things within the Mahayana that are of interest and value to Theravadins, but being a complete and full path to the same awakening acheived by the Buddha, there is nothing that the Theravada needs from the Mahayana.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.