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Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:16 am
by phil
Hi all

Could it be said that it is a modern phenomenon for lay followers to have Ariyan aspirations, to have an interest in what constitutes being sotappanna for example? And could this essentially be a Western phenomenon, rooted in the tendency of Westerners to seek achievment in this one lifetime, to be the best, to do things other people don't or can't do, to compete, to strive for goals?

Of course I'm not saying that striving for goals is absent from the Buddha's teaching, there's a lot of it, and many clear admonitions to strive for improvement, but it seems to me that when I read suttas involving lay followers, there is an interest in behaving in a way that leads to favourable rebirth, and the Buddha teaches in a way that aims at "favourable destinations" and it is only after the person in question has gone forth into the homeless life that there is any reference to Ariyan attainments. Of course there are cases where lay followers have Ariyan attainments, I'm not denying that, but did a householder ever address the Buddha expressing a desire to achieve stream entry, for example?

I guess I feel deficient sometimes because the notion of becoming an Ariyan with the grossly defiled mind that I know I have (so to speak) seems a little absurd, but aiming for rebirth in the human or deva realms is not out of the question. Perhaps you can inspire me (and others like me, if they are here) to be a little more ambitious. :smile:

Metta,

Phil

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:34 am
by Bhikkhu Pesala
Check out the Bodhipakkhiya Dīpanī by the late Venerable Ledi Sayādaw, especially the section on the Four Iddhipādas, and The Simile of the Wealthy Man.

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:37 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Phil,

There are many records in the suttas of lay followers attaining ariyan status, even if opportunities for arahantship are extremely rare.... hence that's the first major milestone I hope to come across in my travels. Why not, what is there to lose from such a goal, even if you fail?

If attempts to attain stream-entry in this lifetime fail, yet deliver some modicum of wisdom, would we have been better off instead doing meritorious deeds which lead to heavenly realms, but are devoid of wisdom of the way things are? Personally I don't think so, but it makes for an interesting question.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:57 am
by nathan
Here is a hypothetical answer to your question. It is natural in our times to question everything, this is the nature of modernity, post modernity and post post modernity. This questioning has an upside and a downside and I think it is beneficial to see that about it and apply whatever wisdom one can to that aspect of things because that is living in the present. So, globally, presently, it is natural to call everything into question, try to nail down answers, question those answers, find better questions, etc.. In traditional terms, this is trying to reinvent the wheel. Which is not going to happen in this case if the Buddha-sāsana is alive. I, for one, am convinced beyond questioning that it is.

So, if one were to hypothetically suggest that the east is actually producing sotāpannassa angāni by the gross tons on a regular basis and has been doing so for two and a half millennia, then we should all be on our knees in gratitude for this inestimable field of merit that has been sown in the world. That is one way of looking at it. Not where everyone is at I'm sure, but it is a fully integrated part of how I see things. We could suggest all kinds of further hypothetical things on this basis. Such as that there would be those out there in the world who would naturally be drawn back to Buddhadhamma because of past kamma and given the resources available today even those who would otherwise be entirely unable to make a meaningful connection with the Dhamma now can do so with ease. We live in very interesting times this way.
:smile:
metta & upekkha

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:08 am
by nathan
One small thing came to mind upon further reflection. Pretty much every other worldview I know of still provides the means for a person to fall in love with themselves or stay in love with themselves somehow. Dhamma/Dharma is the only antidote I know of for this, so if it introduces even a hint of something more liberating and desirable than that kind of condition to anyone it is in itself purely beneficial for all people.
:namaste:

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:49 am
by phil
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phil,

There are many records in the suttas of lay followers attaining ariyan status, even if opportunities for arahantship are extremely rare.... hence that's the first major milestone I hope to come across in my travels. Why not, what is there to lose from such a goal, even if you fail?

If attempts to attain stream-entry in this lifetime fail, yet deliver some modicum of wisdom, would we have been better off instead doing meritorious deeds which lead to heavenly realms, but are devoid of wisdom of the way things are? Personally I don't think so, but it makes for an interesting question.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, I was thinking this afterwards as well, Retro. There is no downside to any kind of striving with respect to the Dhamma. I know some people who say "I would rather have never come across the Dhamma than to practice the wrong way" but I think they are severely misguided on that point.

I guess the only possible downfall would be if people became discouraged and fell off the path completely because it became clear to them that they will never practice in the very demanding ways required by those who really take the plunge. For example, because of the great emphasis placed on meditation by lay followers in the west (safe to say more than in Asia, for better or worse, probably better) I can imagine a person who cannot meditate in the ways he or she is taught and therefore gives up, thinks that he or she cannot live by Dhamma without meditating, who strictly equates the Dhamma with meditation, for example. And who therefore drops Dhamma along with the meditation and suffers for it.

Metta,

Phil

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:51 am
by phil
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Check out the Bodhipakkhiya Dīpanī by the late Venerable Ledi Sayādaw, especially the section on the Four Iddhipādas, and The Simile of the Wealthy Man.
Thank you kindly, Bhante.

Metta,

Phil

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:27 pm
by Ben
Hi Phil

I don;t think it was an aspiration peculiar to western practitioners who wanted to achieve sotapanna in this life. U Ba Khin exhorted his students to achieve sotapatti in this life.
My advice to you is to concentrate on getting your daily practice together, be more perfect in your sila, ensure your meditation is regular, attend retreats more frequently, and I think the results will just look after themselves.
Metta

Ben

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:20 pm
by Rui Sousa
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Check out the Bodhipakkhiya Dīpanī by the late Venerable Ledi Sayādaw, especially the section on the Four Iddhipādas, and The Simile of the Wealthy Man.
Thank you Venerable.

The wealthy man simile was most helpful and inspiring.

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:33 pm
by kc2dpt
phil wrote:I guess I feel deficient sometimes because the notion of becoming an Ariyan with the grossly defiled mind that I know I have (so to speak) seems a little absurd, but aiming for rebirth in the human or deva realms is not out of the question.
If this is how you feel then aim for a good rebirth. Clearly this is something the Buddha approved of.
And could this essentially be a Western phenomenon, rooted in the tendency of Westerners to seek achievment in this one lifetime, to be the best, to do things other people don't or can't do, to compete, to strive for goals?
I would focus on your own motivations and not worry so much about the motivations of others. Just as the Buddha clearly approved of striving for a good rebirth, he also clearly approved of striving for arahantship.

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:46 pm
by Rui Sousa
Phill,

One of the first Theravada texts I have read was one from Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw ( Satipatthana Vipassana ) from which I got the impression that the goal of realizing Nibbana was not supposed to be some long-distance objective, in fact I understood that the objective of becoming an Aryian shouldn't be second to any worldly objectives, and that efforts on that direction were the most worthy objectives one can have.

I can't see a reason why we should hold back on that and say that removing the lower fetters is a superhuman task. Sure it is not an easy task, but it doesn't get much easier than on this human realm, were suffering is more visible and wisdom can be developed faster.

Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, on the above mentioned text, says something I have remembered many times since I read it for the first time:
Impermanence, suffering and non-self will be realized through direct personal experience, and with the full development of these knowledges, Nibbana will be realized. It will not take long to achieve the objective, possibly one month, or twenty days, or fifteen days, or, on rare occasions, even in seven days for those select few with extraordinary parami.

Yogis should therefore proceed with the practice of contemplation in great earnestness and with full confidence, trusting that it will surely lead to the development of the noble path and fruit and to the realization of Nibbana. They will then be free from the wrong view of self and from spiritual doubt, and they will no longer be subject to the round of rebirth in the miserable realms of the hells, the animal world, and the sphere of petas.

May yogis meet with every success in their noble endeavor.

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:14 pm
by phil
Peter wrote:
phil wrote:I guess I feel deficient sometimes because the notion of becoming an Ariyan with the grossly defiled mind that I know I have (so to speak) seems a little absurd, but aiming for rebirth in the human or deva realms is not out of the question.
If this is how you feel then aim for a good rebirth. Clearly this is something the Buddha approved of.
And could this essentially be a Western phenomenon, rooted in the tendency of Westerners to seek achievment in this one lifetime, to be the best, to do things other people don't or can't do, to compete, to strive for goals?
I would focus on your own motivations and not worry so much about the motivations of others. Just as the Buddha clearly approved of striving for a good rebirth, he also clearly approved of striving for arahantship.
Well said, Peter. Thanks. You have a good way of cutting things down to the quick.


Metta,

Phil

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:45 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Peter wrote:
phil wrote:I guess I feel deficient sometimes because the notion of becoming an Ariyan with the grossly defiled mind that I know I have (so to speak) seems a little absurd, but aiming for rebirth in the human or deva realms is not out of the question.
If this is how you feel then aim for a good rebirth. Clearly this is something the Buddha approved of.
Yes, this is true... though it does also call to mind the rebuke the Buddha gave to Sariputta when he gave guidance to a dying man to achieve a destination lower than his potential.

Let me know if you want me to chase down a reference, I think it's somewhere in...

The Life Of Sariputta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el090.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apologies for the slightly rushed response.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:07 pm
by Nadi
Rui Sousa wrote:
One of the first Theravada texts I have read was one from Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw ( Satipatthana Vipassana ) from which I got the impression that the goal of realizing Nibbana was not supposed to be some long-distance objective, in fact I understood that the objective of becoming an Aryian shouldn't be second to any worldly objectives, and that efforts on that direction were the most worthy objectives one can have.
I agree with this. I think the Buddha said in some sutta (sorry I don't remember which) that he does not recommend hanging around in samsara for even a second longer. As far as I can remember, it was said to a monk who had attained anagami, and was thinking of becoming an arahant in his next life (in the realm of the non-returners). The Buddha encouraged him to continue his practice in this very life. Maybe the venerable Bhikkus can point out what sutta this is from?

So I think it's better to have an aspiration to become a sotapanna in this life. It's sort of a win-win situation. If u get there, that's great. If not, you will get a favourable rebirth, and get to continue your practice.

Re: Ariyan aspirations and the lay follower

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:08 pm
by pink_trike
Ben wrote:Hi Phil
My advice to you is to concentrate on getting your daily practice together, be more perfect in your sila, ensure your meditation is regular, attend retreats more frequently, and I think the results will just look after themselves.
Excellent advise.