Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.

dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?

dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...

danieLion wrote:The mind is a system (a process not a thing) and systems are the subject matter of thermodynamics.

Ñāṇa wrote:AFAIK thermodynamics pertains exclusively to physical systems, does it not?

danieLion wrote:Do you believe the mind is completely independent of thermodynamics?

Ñāṇa wrote:I believe that the laws of thermodynamics have little if any relevance with regard to the four noble truths, the noble eightfold path, and liberation.

Ñāṇa wrote:

dhamma follower wrote:You seem to equate the view of momentary rising and falling of dhammas with the belief in the existence of an independent entity.

Do you think that discrete momentary dhammas are rising and falling whether we are aware of this or not?

dhamma follower wrote:Who says there is a real entity?

It seems that you do. Real entities = paramattha dhammas subject to momentary origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga), which are objectively established as real (bhāvasiddha). That is, they are not merely nominally designated based on selective recognition (saññā).

dhamma follower wrote:So, again let the Kalama sutta be our guiding principle...

I prefer to rely on the entire Suttapiṭaka.

dhamma follower wrote:The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that....

dhamma follower wrote:Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

danieLion wrote:It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon.

Ñāṇa wrote:

dhamma follower wrote:The fact that our observation of reality gets deeper and more and more in details as our sati-sampajana grows suggests that it happens all the time like that....

And what makes you believe that it ever happens like that?

dhamma follower wrote:Even if it comes from a monk, a respectable teacher, or sounds very convincing, we don't have to believe it without considering carefully...

There's no reason to believe in discrete momentary dhammas

dhamma follower wrote:When you start to perceive rising and falling in what you have previously perceived as a "static whole", you understand that it is moha that has covered that truth.

Ñāṇa wrote:

danieLion wrote:It also depends on being able to dismiss all these things as having no sufficient correspondences in the Canon.

I'm not dismissing the laws of thermodynamics as a source of worldly knowledge. I'm suggesting that one doesn't need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics to practice the path and attain liberation.

Ñāṇa wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:Is it just the notion of discreet, momentary dhammas, or is it that and the subtext of this thread of the Burmese vipassana traditions having no real legitimacy? So, it is all untenable?

FTR I have never said nor implied that the Burmese Vipassanā traditions have no legitimacy. I have said:

• [T]he most important factors for productive progress in meditation are the maintenance of appropriate ethical conduct, being committed to renunciation and a life of voluntary simplicity, engaging in either solitary or group retreats on a fairly regular basis, and being dedicated to sustaining a daily practice schedule. If these conditions are in place (and it can take time to develop these optimal conditions), then whatever method of instruction one relies on, and whatever primary meditation object one engages in, there will be significant progress.
  
  This whole "samatha vs. vipassanā" debate where some parties are intent upon either tacitly criticizing or overtly attacking the meditation instructions of the Mahāsi Sayādaw tradition and the U Ba Khin tradition as not being the sammāsamādhi of the early teachings, is completely without merit. In both of these traditions the meditation instructions are conjoined samatha & vipassanā methods. Following these instructions can certainly lead to the attainment of the four jhānas as these are described in the canon.

And:

• "Jhāna" as it occurs in the suttas can refer to either (i) jhāna which scrutinizes an object-support (ārammaṇūpanijjhāna) or (ii) jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna). The former is also called samatha jhāna and the latter is also called vipassanā jhāna. Mahāsi Sayādaw, The Wheel of Dhamma:
  
  • Jhāna means closely observing an object with fixed attention. Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such as breathing for tranquility concentration, gives rise to samatha jhāna, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insubstantiality brings about vipassanā jhāna.
  Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) occurs during any moment of the development of vipassanā (vipassanābhāvanā), as well as during any path or fruition attainment. As Sayādaw U Pandita explains in In This Very Life: The Vipassanā Jhānas, vipassanā jhāna can occur with the jhāna factors of each of the four jhānas, and therefore fulfill the criteria of the standard jhāna formula.

And:

• Anyone who denies the efficacy of classical vipassanābhāvanā without rūpāvacarajjhāna and modern Burmese vipassanā jhāna is asserting that they -- and the select few that agree with them -- are right, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is necessarily wrong. This not only represents a dismissive, extreme agenda, the entire premise is nonsensical on the face of it.

And:

• All of the different common [meditation] instructions will work if applied. The most important point is to sit on your sitting mat or cushion -- regularly and repeatedly -- and apply the instruction that resonates with you.

Brizzy wrote:I understand that the Burmese vipassana traditions hold to the view of momentariness and use it in their understanding and development of the path. Would this indicate that a wrong view as a starting point has been taken, if momentariness is a nonsense.

Ñāṇa wrote: It seems to me that one could follow the basic meditation instructions of Mahāsi Sayādaw or U Ba Khin, etc., without subscribing to the view of momentariness. But this probably isn't possible once one gets into the subsequent stages of insight knowledge.

Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:3. Knowledge of Comprehension http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... prehension" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When this "purification (of insight) by overcoming doubt" has reached maturity, the meditator will discern distinctly the initial, middle, and final phases of any object noticed by him. Then, in the case of various objects noticed, he will discern distinctly that only after each earlier process has ceased, does there arise a subsequent process. For instance, only when the rising movement of the abdomen has come to an end, does there arise the falling movement; only when that has ended, is there again a rising movement. So also in the case of walking: only when the lifting of the foot has come to an end, does there arise the carrying forward of the foot; only when that has been completed, does there follow the placing of the foot on the ground.
...

Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:5. Knowledge of Dissolution http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... issolution" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Noticing the bodily and mental processes as they arise, he sees them part by part, link by link, piece by piece, fraction by fraction: "Just now it arises, just now it dissolves." When that knowledge of arising and passing away becomes mature, keen and strong, it will arise easily and proceed uninterruptedly as if borne onward of itself; also the bodily and mental processes will be easily discernible. When keen knowledge thus carries on and formations are easily discernible, then neither the arising of each bodily and mental process, nor its middle phase called "presence," nor the continuity of bodily and mental processes called "occurrence as unbroken flux" is apparent to him; nor are the shape of the hand, the foot, the face, the body, and so on, apparent to him. But what is apparent to him is only the ceasing of bodily and mental processes, called "vanishing," or "passing away," or "dissolution."

For instance, while noticing the rising movement of the abdomen, neither its initial nor middle phase is apparent, but only the ceasing or vanishing, which is called the final phase, is apparent; and so it is also with the falling movement of the abdomen. Again, in the case of bending an arm or leg, while noticing the act of bending, neither the initial nor the middle phase of bending is apparent, nor is the form of the limb apparent, but only the final phase of ceasing and vanishing is apparent. It is similar in the other cases of stretching a limb, and so on.

For at that time each object that is being noticed seems to him to be entirely absent or to have become non-existent. Consequently, at this stage of knowledge, it seems to him as if he were engaged in noticing something which has already become absent or non-existent by having vanished; and the consciousness engaged in noticing appears to have lost contact with the object that is being noticed. It is for that reason that a meditator may here think: "I have lost the insight"; but he should not think so.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ven. Anuruddha:]
You fool, don't you know the arahants' maxim?
—
'How inconstant are compounded things!
Their nature: to arise & pass away.
They disband as they are arising.
Their total stilling is bliss.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ñāṇa wrote:

Brizzy wrote:I understand that the Burmese vipassana traditions hold to the view of momentariness and use it in their understanding and development of the path. Would this indicate that a wrong view as a starting point has been taken, if momentariness is a nonsense.

It seems to me that one could follow the basic meditation instructions of Mahāsi Sayādaw or U Ba Khin, etc., without subscribing to the view of momentariness. But this probably isn't possible once one gets into the subsequent stages of insight knowledge.

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, that would have to assume that momentariness is nonsense, a position seemingly argued for here, but not definitively demonstrated

tiltbillings wrote:Also, it is not a billion of mind moments in an eye blink; it billions. In other words it is a meaningless number.

tiltbillings wrote:I am curious, in this light, if Ven Ñanananda, whose meditation practices and what he teaches is derived from Mahasi Sayadaw, holds a hard core "momentary" point of view, in your opinion.

Ñāṇa wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, that would have to assume that momentariness is nonsense, a position seemingly argued for here, but not definitively demonstrated

Which is it? Is momentariness veridical or is it meaningless as you stated here:

tiltbillings wrote:Also, it is not a billion of mind moments in an eye blink; it billions. In other words it is a meaningless number.

tiltbillings wrote:I am curious, in this light, if Ven Ñanananda, whose meditation practices and what he teaches is derived from Mahasi Sayadaw, holds a hard core "momentary" point of view, in your opinion.

He's less than clear on this point.

mikenz66 wrote:It's not obvious to me that what is described here requires phenomena to be "momentary" in the later commentarial sense.

mikenz66 wrote:And observation of arising and passing away of phenomena is certainly discussed in the Suttas:

• With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of form. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of form. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of form....
  
  With the arising of name-and-form there is the arising of consciousness. With the cessation of name-and-form there is the cessation of consciousness. And this noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of consciousness.

• And what, monks, is the origin of form? What is the origin of feeling? What is the origin of recognition? What is the origin of fabrications? What is the origin of consciousness? Here monks, a monk seeks delight, welcomes, remains attached.
  
  And what does one seek delight in, welcome, and remain attached to? One seeks delight in form, welcomes it, and remains attached to it. Due to seeking delight in form, welcoming it, and remaining attached to it, delight arises. Delight in form is clinging. With clinging as a condition, existence; with existence as a condition, birth; with birth as a condition, aging and death, sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.
  
  One seeks delight in feeling, welcomes it, and remains attached to it... One seeks delight in recognition, welcomes it, and remains attached to it... One seeks delight in fabrications, welcomes them, and remains attached to them... One seeks delight in consciousness, welcomes it, and remains attached to it. Due to seeking delight in consciousness, welcoming it, and remaining attached to it, delight arises. Delight in consciousness is clinging. With clinging as a condition, existence; with existence as a condition, birth; with birth as a condition, aging and death, sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.
  
  This, monks, is the origin of form, this is the origin of feeling, this is the origin of recognition, this is the origin of fabrications, this is the origin of consciousness.
  
  And what, monks, is the passing away of form? What is the passing away of feeling? What is the passing away of recognition? What is the passing away of fabrications? What is the passing away of consciousness? Here monks, a monk does not seek delight, does not welcome, does not remain attached.
  
  And what does one not seek delight in, not welcome, and not remain attached to? One does not seek delight in form, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it. Due to not seeking delight in form, not welcoming it, and not remaining attached to it, delight in form ceases. With the cessation of delight, the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, the cessation of existence... Such is the cessation of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.
  
  One does not seek delight in feeling, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it... One does not seek delight in recognition, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it... One does not seek delight in fabrications, does not welcome them, and does not remain attached to them... One does not seek delight in consciousness, does not welcome it, and does not remain attached to it. Due to not seeking delight in consciousness, not welcoming it, and not remaining attached to it, delight in consciousness ceases. With the cessation of delight, the cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, the cessation of existence... Such is the cessation of this entire heap of unsatisfactoriness.
  
  This, monks, is the passing away of form, this is the passing away of feeling, this is the passing away of recognition, this is the passing away of fabrications, this is the passing away of consciousness.